Dorgard

[Graeme]

just finshed testing a site with these fitted.Two worked after i took the batteries out and back ,one failed to operate even though there was  an alarm device very closeby and another stuck on the carpet halfway.
All the others worked fine apart from leaving a big score in the carpets.

[colin todd]

Ideal really.

[Paul]

If they are this good I may install them in my house!!

[colin todd]

Smith Towers would be enhanced by them I am sure.

[Graeme]

The Irony is that Joe Bloggs fits them thinking that they are a fantastic wire free idea only to find out some wont work because sound levels are not high enough,so the solution is to run cables for additional alarm devices.

[bob docherty]

Hi Graeme, trouble is Joe Bloggs fits all kinds of things, that why we have B&Q! also Joe Fire Brigade fits loads of smoke alarms as well and some fit them with double sided sticky pads or look no nails!! well, are they the experts or what?  anyway don't blame the equipment that does not work because of other failures, like who fitted the fire alarm in the first place and did they do a sound check and did the fire brigade not check it on inspection and did the maintenance team not check sound levels under the contract etc etc etc etc.  Hey risk assessment is great isn't it? thats when I have found the beloved (by some) EMRs not fitted and wired correctly but not much space in these columns devoted to them is there!!!!  You know some people just don't read the instructions even when fitting life saving stuff like smoke alarms, Dorgards, fire alarms and yes believe it or not EMRs.  Oh and by the way was the door ACTUALLY warped Ian?
Cheers
BOB

[Graeme]

Hi Bob

On this site Joe Bloggs did not install them and i'm saying in general that they are regarded as a brilliant idea by those not technical who think they can go on every door.
The holders on this occasion did not work on two doors due to equipment failure and not from another factor.
I would not be confident that they will all work when needed.I saw this for myself and i would also not install them.
The Manager mentioned that they activated every time they had a Wedding and the Bride was Piped in.

The maintance team do not carry out DBa tests as a routine service unless asked by the ownwer to carry one out,the Fire Brigade don't do sound tests.If you take on a new contract then i would carry out a special service with DBa tests.

These are my opinions on the units anyway.

[colin todd]

The answer is to equip every occupant with a set of bagpipes, the teaching of which sould be compulsory anyway.

[Ian Currie]

Hi Bob
No, this particular door was not warped but then the unit had not been fitted for very long. It would be unfair to blame the Dorgard for this anyway since warping is caused by incorrect installation of the hold-back relative to the closer. The trouble is that this is the only place you can mount a Dorgard unit whereas most other kinds can be mounted in the correct position to avoid diagonal stress over the door leaf.

And before someone points out with relish that this would be caught by the maintenance regime, I entirely accept that it should. In the same way as the carpet rucking up and the unit not clearing one in every three tries and the local sounder developing a fault and - and - and. It was the difficulty in gauranteeing against human error; that all the faults would be caught, that persuaded us against them. There are enough problems using system integrated units, why introduce more ?

Remember too, I was talking about an old peoples home with frail occupants. they may well be acceptable in another, more robust, environment.............subject to risk assessment and the statutory bagpipe conservation survey.

Nice to know the old folks would be safe at least once a year on Burn's night when they would all be out the way tucking into the 'cratur' when the doors suddenly release. =D

[davaleric]

As a fire officer,who is currently deciding if i should object to some Dorguards being installed in a resi care home i have inspected, i came here for some help. The message is clear. Nobody really knows the correct answer. If i posed the question: Can i allow Dorguards on a single staircase in a resi care premises i suspect i would get widely differing answers. Due to the incredibly inept guidance and support to enforcing officers i cannot delve through volumes of BS's or Co letters to find my answer.The result would be the same.  Therefore my decision can only be made on the particular premises and then after careful consideration and knowledge of fire and people behaviour. At least with 22 years experience of fire i have a chance of getting it right. Unfortunately with the new regime of risk assessing everthing, many owners will have made their own decisions based more on convenience than safety. Are occupiers vigilant enough to realise if their premises has already been risk-assessed away from other matters? Should this single staircase even be allowed up to 2 floors with 3 rooms opening onto each level? Should the reception be within the stair enclosure?
A major overhaul of thinking in fire legislation is required and in my opinion the more prescriptive the better. At least everyone will know where they stand.
For the record this premises has 5 Dorguards arriving to install next week. My current thinking is that 1 of them could be considered necessary and be permitted.

[Graeme]

I was at an OPH three weeks ago and thay had 5 Dorgard's installed and they all worked,so i'm seeing mixed results.
However i am in the process of making a Bagpipe evacuation system which is ideal for this application.

[Allen Higginson]

Ohhh,you cynic!I have two sheltered schemes that have Dorgards installed throughout (by a third party) and they all work.

[colin todd]

Davaleric, I like the idea of you risk assessing the situation based on 22 years experience. Personally, I would tend to avoid fitting hold open devices of any sort in a single staircase situation, but if it really is necessary you want to be sure about the level of AFD and that the devices will really fail safe in the event of failure of the fire alarm system. Listen to your gut feel and judgement , not the prejudices or hype of others!!!

[Ken Taylor]

Wasn't there some guidance around at one time to the effect that door-holders were OK for doors dividing corridors but not for those serving stairs forming part of an escape route. I know that thinking on this subject has changed over the years but must admit to apprehension with regard to single staircase conditions.

[Paul]

Single staircases and dorguard, not for me I'm afraid.  I would tend to look at the reasons why you need them.  Why will normal auto closures not surfice.  Is there an operational need for them to be open in working hours etc.  If so then surely this is a behavioural issue??  People need to be influenced into always making sure fire doors are shut once they have carried out specific tasks that require the doors to be held open.

If you look at the postings on this thread you will see that many have experience of the failings of these devices, hovever there are few if any that have a good word to say about them, well that are not involved in selling them that is.

Paul