Author Topic: The effect of sprinklers on a new build  (Read 17445 times)

Offline Davo

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The effect of sprinklers on a new build
« on: May 19, 2010, 08:17:51 PM »
New build starting soon, 3 floors, 100m x 25m.
Offices and technical including scientific. Critcal Building due to contents.
400 staff, large open areas, compartmented into three per floor. Individual critical areas half or full hour.
L1 detection

FP designed to Doc B
Then surprise agreement to fit sprinklers all areas by the money men!

Goes to Building Regs who apply 9999 principles with said sprinker system  and say building is overspecced, save shedloads due to wonderful sprinklers!


Question is (pleads ignorance on sprinklers :()

How far can one relax DocB and in what areas?



davo

Offline kurnal

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Re: The effect of sprinklers on a new build
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2010, 08:42:36 PM »
Hard to say without seeing the layout Davo. Much work has been done in this area in respect of domestic and residential but in commercial buildings it tends to be on a case by case basis. Heres a few ideas though- assuming we are talking a proper BSEN 12845 system

Compartmentation- compartment sizes relaxed.
Fire Protection to elements of structure- may be cut by 50%
More freedom to use large areas of uninsulated  or even non FR glazing
Potential to take a more relaxed view over  dead end conditions, travel distances generally
Potential to reduce exit widths slightly

As always if you wish to send over a few drawings we could have a look to see if it might be cost effective to carry out a design review in view of the decision to install sprinklers, but if you are at the building regs stage then the potential delays to the program may well outweigh any financial  benefits. It might cost you a pie and a pint though.

Anyway its about time you had a few overspecced buildings to make up for all the rest.

Offline John Webb

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Re: The effect of sprinklers on a new build
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2010, 08:47:47 PM »
From work on sprinkers some 15 years ago (which led the then Home Office to allow them for life safety in department stores and the like) one of the main benefits was increased travel distances - particulaly useful in shops and similar public places. Also reduced smoke ventilation needs (smaller fires).
I'm also guessing you might reduce the FA system perhaps even to an L5 risk-assessed one from a full-blown L1 - but you'd have better knowledge of the building and contents than I have to make that decision.

Will you be taking any precautions to minimise water damage? May be important in the 'scientific' areas if expensive floor-mounted equipment is about?
 
John Webb
Consultant on Fire Safety, Diocese of St Albans
(Views expressed are my own)

Offline Galeon

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Re: The effect of sprinklers on a new build
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2010, 09:11:08 PM »
Commenting on Johns post , you will find it common practice for the big boy stores to use sprinklers over detection . If my memory serves me right I am sure when they had a big fire at Brent Cross years ago a lot of the merchandise was sold off smoke water damaged .
However the last few refits I have seen within some shopping centres , they seem to be putting more detection in , as well as the sprinklers.
You might find that the sprinklers on  the new build may be driven by the Insurance Company .
Its time to make a counter attack !

Offline Clevelandfire 3

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Re: The effect of sprinklers on a new build
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2010, 12:39:29 AM »
They are driven by the insurance companies, as something a client of mine found out too late. Sprinklers are all well and good but they do have certain limitations and they cant stop smoke in the incipient stages of a fire. With early detection you can warn people to get out of a building on fire which insurance companies like alot.It follows you get the fire service there earlier too so damage is limited even if the sprinklers hold it off before fire crews totally extinguish the fire.Smoke and water damge are things insurance companies dont like. Sprinkler systems are only as good as the person who designs them.

Offline AnthonyB

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Re: The effect of sprinklers on a new build
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2010, 10:28:22 AM »
Depending on the criticality and nature of the contents in the scientific areas normal sprinklers may be counter-productive even if satisfactory for life purposes as any water damage of that nature could be devastating and these areas may suit gas systems better or water mist of water is to be used.
Anthony Buck
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Offline Davo

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Re: The effect of sprinklers on a new build
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2010, 12:32:11 PM »
AnthonyB

I did ask for mist originally, AB but our insurerz turned it down some months ago.
I like you have concerns over the damage that may be done. Some very critical areas have a gas system eg computer systems.


Prof
Will run it past my boss.
Official sod turning in two weeks but our internal department wants to revise the layout as it and the whole Force are making substantial civvy staff cuts (keeps head down) across the board.

Sprinkler system specified by the insurerz, am told its similar to T***


davo


Offline Phoenix

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Re: The effect of sprinklers on a new build
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2010, 09:48:01 AM »
Some good points made so far.  A few more points:

1) Sprinklers cause significantly less water damage than fire fighters extinguishing a fire with water from their hoses.

2) Yes, of course, there are better suppression systems available for protecting water sensitive equipment.  Building and suppression system designers should take account of this and specify the appropriate supression systems.

3) If they're putting in sprinklers why not give them some credit?  They have virtually guaranteed, to about a 95% confidence level, that any fires that do occur will be controlled by a very small number of sprinklers and will not grow beyond a small size. 

Kurnal has listed some of the advantages of sprinklers, there are more.  If you're following 9999 the advantages are clear and quantified.  If you're following other guidance, they are still clear but not always so quantified. 

I feel it would be unfair not to offer these compensatory reductions in fire safety provisions.  Indeed, if other developers see the cost effective advantages that sprinklers can bring then maybe we might just see sprinklers fitted a little more often, and that would be no bad thing.

Stu


Chris Houston

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Re: The effect of sprinklers on a new build
« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2010, 11:40:29 PM »
They are driven by the insurance companies

......amongst others.

Sprinklers are all well and good but they do have certain limitations

Why not tell us what they are then.

Sprinkler systems are only as good as the person who designs them.

or the numerous persons who check the design or the standard the person designed them too.  I don't agree with your argument.  You could say that anything is only as good as the person who designed it.  But sprinkers are checked by quite a lot of people along the way.

Offline Clevelandfire 3

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Re: The effect of sprinklers on a new build
« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2010, 11:56:11 PM »
Sorry Chris insurance companies are amongst the most. Fact. Do fire authorities enforce sprinkler systems in most cases ? nope. Does building control? occassionally, but generally not,  who else pushes for them? Ive been on the planet too long Chris. My time as an inspector taught me that the insurance companies are far more powerful than any enforcing body. So lets not be silly about this. Limitations of sprinklers are that they dont necessarily put out the fire, you can get water damage, still get possible smoke damage, fire could sheltered inside or underneath something where a sprinkler head cannot effectively reach.
Im not saying sprinklers are a bad thing but there is a myth that they are some kind of magic wonderous all problem solving device that does away with the need for almost any other fire precaution.There are companies who design install and commission there own systems without third party scrutiny. Yes that could be said about a lot of things. My point was not ambiguous. You need to be sure with sprinkler systems that you get something that does the job properly. Im just saying be careful thats all.

Chris Houston

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Re: The effect of sprinklers on a new build
« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2010, 12:19:46 AM »
Usually people tend to quote sources rather to prove accuracy, rather than just add the word "fact".  In professional circles anyway.

Lots of people are in favour of sprinklers.  Consultants, building owners, governments, local authorities, educational authorities.  Fire authorities have a limited remit - they only care about safety.  It is not their role to care about protection of assets, business, reputation, the emotional effects of a fire, the effect it would have on a business or child's education. 

Most fire (99%) are indeed controlled by the sprinklers alone (http://www.bafsa.org.uk/facts.html)

You can indeed get water damage.  The same is true of fire fighting.  The later comes with a lot more water damage.  So you could also argue that there is a lot of limitations of fire fighting.  But I don't suppose you'd be suggesting we don't fight fires.  Once there is a fire, it tends to be FIRE damage that people tend to be most concearned about.

If a sprinkler head cannot reach a fire, then there is probably a design flaw.  But to NOT put them in would surely mean a sprinkler head would not reach the fire, so I'm not bowled over by this argument.

There are companies who put in sprinklers that are not 3rd party accredited?  If so, then avoid them.  But there are people who might sell dodgy fire extingiushers.  Does it mean we should dismiss fire extinguishers are all bad?  I suggest not.  I suggest we use the same rule for sprinklers then.

You are just saying be careful?  That would be good advice.  But it is not just what you were saying.  You were saying what we can all read you actually said which was a pretty weak argument, in my personal opinion.

Offline Clevelandfire 3

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Re: The effect of sprinklers on a new build
« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2010, 12:32:53 AM »
Yes in your personal opinion. People will make their own minds up Chris, with something so fundemental and potentially very beneficial it is important to do the homework on the pros and cons before just running in blindly thinking sprinklers will solve every problem going. So the Government want sprinklers does it. Yes Oh i forgot they have been pushing that for years, is that why its been law to install them in so many buildings for so long?. Building owners? Oh yeah I hear that wherever I go Chris, my clients always suggest sprinklers be installed. Sorry are we saying that sprinklers cant be of life safety benefit and that the fire service shouldnt enforce them by the way? Local authorities and Ed authorities?, yeah thats a great one, when they have the cash of course they like sprinklers, normally its at the expense of maintance or provision of other precautions in their older properties if you want the truth. Funny  you see if you attend several conferences like i do each year, talk to people from all areas of the industry , from designers, installers, clients, specifiers, INSURANCE ASSESSORS , and other industry exerts its very strange how i hear the same thing time and time again. Theyre all telling me its the insurance companies which have led the way on requiring sprinkler installation. But hey ho lets not let facts get in the way of a good argument. And the 99 % figure quoted reates to sprinklers under test conditions.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2010, 12:39:22 AM by Clevelandfire 3 »

Chris Houston

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Re: The effect of sprinklers on a new build
« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2010, 02:04:08 AM »
I would agree that balancing the pros and cons would be a logical way to assess the risk.

I don't think that because your attend some conferences every year that your opinion is any more valid than mine (nor do I know why you wrote insurance assessors in capital letters).  I too provide risk management advice to clients who have opinions on the subject.  That said, most of them don't know that much about sprinklers.  Anyway, this is a discussion forum where people can discuss items like this and attending a few conferences doesn't make your opinion any more valid than mine.  I think what makes arguments relevant is the presentation of logical and science based points.

The only time I have ever heard of an insurance company forcing sprinklers on anyone, is where the last building burnt to the ground.  If anyone doesn't like what their insurance company wants, just change insurance companies!

So, there are reasons not to install sprinklers.  But I've yet to see you mention any of them.  The most obvious one would be cost.  They cost lots of money.  That would be the other half of the cost vs benefit argument.

The benefits are great, they save businesses and they save lives.  Your points on their "limitations" are pretty shoddy arguments.  But it's an accurate (as much as possible) cost v benefit analysis that should be the backbone for decision on sprinkler installation.

Offline Wiz

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Re: The effect of sprinklers on a new build
« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2010, 05:30:54 PM »
Chris, a fire officer I know once told me about the horrendous damage (to structure, fittings and stock) caused by sprinkler systems when they operate.
I've often wondered if this is a real problem when weighed against the benefits.
Do you have any idea of the costs of this damage every year? I suppose I am talking about damage caused by the sprinkler system accidentally operating when faulty/damaged and not during a fire (I suppose any damage caused by sprinkler operation during a fire is insignificant compared to what the fire might have caused!)
I can see that they have the potential for causing expensive damage, but I wonder if anyone has the figures.

Offline Tall Paul

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Re: The effect of sprinklers on a new build
« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2010, 05:53:27 PM »
In relation to the potential trade-off's for sprinkler systems, "A Guide To Automatic Water Suppression Systems (AWSS) And Their Practical Application" published by CFOA gives some useful pointers.  It also makes it clear where trade-off's are not acceptable.  This document is more current than "Sptinklers for Life Safety", which was published by BAFSA and quoted in Approved Document B.