Atlast Common Sense

[Clevelandfire 3]

The Government have announced today that the needless red tape and silly health and safety legislation will finally be exempted from UK Police and Fire Services following very sad and needless fatalities where emergency service personnel were not allowed to attempt rescues for fear of losing their jobs

Maybe, just maybe common sense is beginning to  come through once again.

For you disbelievers out there and those who felt safety was paramount, what about the job we joined up to do. People expect the emergency services to do all they can when someone's in trouble and now they can once again. No more needless deaths. People who join the armed forces or emergency services know what they are getting themselves in for whne they sign up to the job. Sometimes we have to take calculated risks. Theis heralds the start of the return of the old fire service as we knew it . Thank god!  Let us get on with our jobs !

[Steven N]

Haven't you retired from the service though ? Still someone will need to train us on hook ladders etc.
And before you go getting aggresive etc yes H&S can be an issue I think we all agree with that, I'd be interested to know of a genuine example you have as opposed to a friend of a friend or a newspaper saying when something was not done due to H&S concerns? (puts on crash hat now)

[Clevelandfire 3]

Gee thanks Stevo, that was nice of you. Yes Im retired but still take an interest in the service, and i could state several times when H&S has gone overboard but if you read today's papers maybe you will accept more from them  rather than listen to me apparently talking to friends of friends of friends.

[kurnal]

It seems to me from observation, news stories and from speaking to a number of former colleagues, that senior management have greater concerns over potential charges of corporate manslaughter if things go wrong than  perhaps the level and quality of service to the public  at operational incidents. For this reason I cautiously welcome the new intitiative.

It also seems to me that those senior managers who have not come up through the operational ranks are these most likely to focus on corporate issues rather than the task in hand, and impose and enforce  lengthy and inflexible safe systems of work for all manner of sitations, which inhibit  improvisation.

It is right and proper that all operational decisions be based on dynamic risk assessment. This has saved a number of lives and controls the red mist- but the only focus of the risk assessment  should be to give the best help to someone in danger and at the same time getting all your crew members home safely at the end. Any relaxationand indemnity against prosecution must not be abused as something for poor management to hide behind.

Our greatest strengths  used to be flexibility,  adaptabity and the ability to improvise- to use basic equipment safely in different ways and combinations. In my view the worry over H&S and corporate manslaughter have stifled this.

[Steven N]

Sounds spot on really Kurnal

[Midland Retty]

Yes absolutely spot on. Particulalrly   "Our greatest strengths  used to be flexibility,  adaptabity and the ability to improvise- to use basic equipment safely in different ways and combinations. In my view the worry over H&S and corporate manslaughter have stifled this".

[Nearlybaldandgrey]

I write this wearing full P.P.E ....

It also seems to me that those senior managers who have not come up through the operational ranks are these most likely to focus on corporate issues rather than the task in hand, and impose and enforce  lengthy and inflexible safe systems of work for all manner of sitations, which inhibit  improvisation.

I agree with this, but just to throw something else into the mix  ........

Improvisation of kit is all well and good until it goes wrong and it is highlighted that it was not being used for the purpose it was intended. That said, it shouldn't be discouraged as it is sometimes the only thing to do and can be justified, especially when it gets damaged.

Health and Safety on the incident ground is important and commanders need to have some to make operational decisions based on risk. I was recently on a course at the FSC where 'appetite for risk' was discussed and the fact that newer managers have been 'brought up' in the current culture, not knowing any other way than to be cautious and ensure safe systems of work are implemented because of the very issues highlighted.

Senior managers have a different awareness of the corporate accountability, both on the incident ground and day to day. They operate at a corporate/strategic level so decisions they make are more accountable and could have an adverse effect on the organisation and it's reputation. This is something which is not necessarily a priority or even thought about by those attending as the initial incident commanders.

I still believe in 'traditional' fire fighter skills - improvising to solve a problem etc ..... as long as it's justified and the individual making the decision can stand by that decision.

[Cat]

Well said Kurnal.  I think H&S has to be used in connection with common sense.  Lately it seems that judgements/decisions based on common sense has gone out of the window and not just in the Fire Service.  The Police is the same.  I believe part of this is due to people being afraid of getting sued for not following procedure and being able to cover their backs.  As long as you can justify why you do something then why shouldn't you try it, within reason of course?  We are after all part of the emergency services to help preserve, protect and save lives primarily.  If due to legislation we are prevented from doing this then surely there is a problem?

My understanding and lack of experience may be over simplifying the situation, however when we get to a stage where for me as a Police Officer I am not allowed to ride a pedal bike because I have not been on the course to prove I can safely ride a bike and ensure it is fit for purpose (No joke there!) I think It is time for a change.  Hopefully these government proposals will be for the better.

[Midland Retty]

Without wanting to labour the point there used to be occassions where the 135 or 105 ladders were used to bridge obsticles, such as a canal, for instance.

This practice has long since banned. A blanket "no" from senior officers stopped crews from using bits of kit which ordinarily performed one role to do another .

But why?, I accept the ladders weren't designed for bridging obstacles but it always baffled me why my brigade wouldnt do some controlled tests, or get the manufacturer to do tests, to see how that equipment behaved when used in such a way. Or how about when buying new bits of kit you ask the suppliers to manufacture it so that it is able to withstand doing dual roles safely.

Now alright I know it isn't quite that simple, but firstly part of the firefighters role is to improvise in various situations. To me if you can carry stuff on a fire appliance which can perform two or maybe three roles, then it makes sense to do so.

I have to hark on about a shout i attended where a sheep was stuck in the canal. After 2 hours ,4 fire appliances, the rescue boat and its support vehicle in attendance we were just about ready to look at getting the poor old sheep out, who by this time was suffering from sheep hypothermia.

Members of the public thought it was farcical. That was health and safety gone mad, and such a waste of resources, as well as needless environmental impact of sending all of those gas guzzlers out.

The officer in charge was approached on the matter and agreed the attendance was OTT but said "its health and safety isn't it, I had to go down this route"

Its things like that which make a mockery of the system, and how it is perceived. Health and safety actually is about common sense for the most part, and it is that element of common sense which has been taken away.

[Billy]

I might be a Dinosaur But most of us 'more experienced personnel' still remember the 4 main Duties.
To save life
To protect property
To render humanitarian services
To protect the Environment
These are still what the public expects from us when they call us out to everything and anything remotely dangerous.
We carry out Risk Assessments because, you, me and the public know that the job is risky and we should use skills, training, experience and control measures to reduce the risk.

When I hear people talking about 'protecting the organisation' I  have always thought that the best way an organisation could be protected is getting the right people with the right skills and sound Operational experience in the right jobs so when the time comes, they can use their prior experiences to decide what is best for all concerned.

I  remember getting good advice from a Senior Officer  I worked with years ago who said that
"Procedures are for the guidance of wise men and the blind obedience of fools"
and this is more true today than it has ever been.
 I have always kept this in mind on the occasions I have had to  work on the periphery of procedures to save life or property whilst protecting the organisation in the process.

Anyway, rant over, lunch over, now back to work.

[Tom Sutton]

Billy I must be an older Dinosaur than you we didn’t give a S**t about the environment, except when we might get a rollicking for allowing grunge to get in the drains or the water course 

[Davo]

Latest score.......

Dinosaurs 2     Jobsworth United 0



Well said


Cat
Our cycle test involves a quick pedal round the yard.(Unless you use the bike for pursuit)
As for bikes, a simple checklist before you go out just like you would in a car- tyres, horn, mirrors etc

Simples


davo

[Cat]

Davo,

Yikes, I wonder which course I have been put on then???  I haven't been signed off on the Introduction to Police bike riding module yet which included the details below.

They said I have to show proficiency in getting safely on and off the human powered pedal vehicle and be able to sit with correct posture i.e with back straight, hands out in front gripping the handle bars but not so tight so as to cause strain or sress on the hands and fingers with feet comfortably placed on the moving foot supports whilst in perfect balance i.e not falling off.

I also have to be able to show awareness and understanding of the dangers of moving objects either on the bike i.e pedals etc and to avoid catching oneself on them and also moving objects coming towards me such as homo sapiens on foot inc younger members of our community in prams and also our 4 legged friends.  I must also show an understanding of the dangers of entagling oneself with the 4 wheeled motorised counterparts and what one should do should one encounter one such vehicle.

I can't think why I have failed so far although they did mention something about getting on the bike the correct way.  It might have something to do with it although they never mentioned anything about that in our safety briefing which also incurred a test which you had to pass before you could even contemplate going near a human powered pedal vehicle.

 

[kurnal]

Cat you are not trying to ride side saddle are you? Ive seen Davos bikes they have blue flashing lights but no sirens- thats down to the rider.

Flishy flashy woo woos just what you always wanted. But you have to do the woo woo.

Davo says  the requirement is for a Fervent Audible Resonating Tone.

It appears though that these seem more effective when the rider is standing on the pedals rather than in the seated position.

[Cat]

Why of course Kurnal, you cannot expect me to ride astride surely? Its so undignified and un-lady-like!  As to standing on the pedals has there been a risk assesment done first and can I see it please?

Do I have to pass a test with the woo woos?  If so I think I may need a bit of practice to meet the Fervent Audible Resonating Tone.

Woo woo, woo woo, woo woo, woo woo, woo woo.  Hows that?