Petrol Use For Fire Training;

[Psuedonym]

A mate of mine has asked if I can find out if its true that petrol is banned for use as a fire (portables) training medium as he has been informed. With the preferance being for the use of gas trailers (EnvironMental Waste nish nosh etc).
 
Is anyone aware of the rules and regs for this use of petrol? Are there any limitations etc?

If anyone has any specifics I'd be much grateful.

Ta 

[The Colonel]

I and a collegue use gas rigs mainly for conveniance and less mess, my insurance is up for renewal and when getting quotes came across the following endorsement on part of the paperwork from one company.

" Any flammable liquid fire must not extend to an area larger than .25 meters and the flammable liquid must consist mainly of water with a small amont of petrol and/or parafin mixture added"

This is not the first time that I have come across this so I can only assume that there is not specific rules just conditions imposed by your insurance company. I also lnow of one trainer that still use's wood paper etc along with an oil/petrol/water mix

[AnthonyB]

We don't use petrol as it's too high risk with it's vapours, but do use paraffin or oil that requires a propane lance to bring to ignition point.

There is no absolute ban on proper live fire as oppose to gas simulation, but you need to account for:
- any by-laws on 'clean air' and restricting burning where you are
- insurance requirements
- Dealing with residue in compliance with environmental regulations (i.e. not emptying a tray full of a mix of un-burnt paraffin, water, AFFF & Powder down the drain!)

[John Webb]

I and a collegue use gas rigs mainly for conveniance and less mess, my insurance is up for renewal and when getting quotes came across the following endorsement on part of the paperwork from one company.

" Any flammable liquid fire must not extend to an area larger than .25 meters and the flammable liquid must consist mainly of water with a small amont of petrol and/or parafin mixture added".........

Apologies if I'm teaching anyone to 'suck eggs' but just to clarify the petrol and/or paraffin mixture is carefully poured on top of the water layer - the latter acts as a level base and serves to protect the fire tray from the heat to a greater or lesser degree, for the information of those not so familiar with training or extinguisher test fires.

[BLEVE]

0.25 m² fire  Not the most challenging of fires for training purposes

[kurnal]

My insurers specifically prohibit the use of anything other than the LPG fire simulator. No problem but its good to know other companies still allow live fires. 

As AB points out disposal of residue can be a problem, we do not allow AFFF to contaminate the ground, we collect it in a tray beneath the simulator and dispose of into an IBC back at base which is then sent for treatment as hazardous waste.  If we were to use petrol then how would we then deal with the residue as it would then create us problems for storage prior to disposal?

Before we had the LPG trailer we used to use only diesel oil or paraffin for class B fires.

[Psuedonym]

Cheers chaps,

I too used petrol/oil/diesel back in the day when I carried out training but it is no longer my brief - restaurant systems these days, but found a good "healthy (!)" mix was more effective - especially when the mix was a swine to extinguish !! My most memorable was a waste water unit near Carlise up on a hillside in a Hell of a blizzard when stand up was difficult enough. That's when a good mix really comes in usefull.

As for waste residue, most was burnt off and after practice the actual waste wasn't much and what was left - water base, AFFF, Powder, was washed off the trays and all poured down a drain or left on waste land - you know, that's what used to happen in the bad old days. Although this was only after comfirmation with the client and if you were savvy enough you let them suggest it! All in the days before box ticking and showing oneself to be greener than the grass you were standing on wasn't the priority (drain waste is a hangable offence these days).
However it was bloody crazy driving around with that lot in the back of the van! 

I too would be going for the gas option these days - it just doesn't seem to have the same risk and hazards (wind/smoke/heat esp.) presented by a liquid option for the trainee. No fun!!

Anyway, enough waffle, I will let my mate know your responses tommorow and thank you on his behalf.

Thanks again.

[jayjay]

Why are metal trays of flammable liquids used for fire training?

I have never inspected a premises and come across a metal tray containing a flammable liquid.

[AnthonyB]

I don't think most clients would be happy if you melted the tarmac of the car park by having a shallow spill fire 

Fair point, not many flammable solvent dipping baths around these days.

For a lot of premises a more realistic thing would be to stick a PC on a desk with a load of paper around and then light up the PC! (did that once for a particular client who wanted live fire practical - all IT based so no point in doing a class B tray)

It would be difficult to simulate the various 'real' fire situations though