Queens Bench Division ruling on an HSE Improvement Notice

[crusty]

Queens Bench Division ruling on an HSE Improvement Notice

Can anyone please shine a light on this matter and where I can find more information on this.

Many thanks.

[dave bev]

youre gonna have to provide more info than that! dates/names involved would help - then search under queens bench division - this should lead ypu (eventually) to where you need to be - im not sure about the time scales from judgement to publication on the net though?

[colin todd]

I believe the score was Consultants 1-HSE 0. Shame that Germany didn't have a QB Division, or they world might not have had Hitler.

[crusty]

Thanks Colin.

I believe the improvement notice was issued by a health and safety inspector. I think the case was BT Fleet Ltd.

I was wondering what effect this judgement would have on the enforcement letters local fire authorities send out. Which as always for fire services differ from one Brigade to another!



By the way I read a nice article you wrote in the fsp. Pas 79. Are you saying that If any person follows PAS 79 will carry out a fire risk assessment which will meet the requirements of all Fire Authorities? If the cleaner can carry out the risk assessment then they should change there job title to "consultant"

It looks like the workplace is going to become a "do what you want" as long as you don't have a fire! Then always ask the officer who is interviewing you “so what qualifications have you got to carry out an audit on me!".

I think the future is very unclear because of these lovely words ( Competent person, audit, steps, risk assessment and many more)that have come in. We had Guides, These might have been used as Bibles but the song sheet was always the same and the training was given by the FSC to most Brigades.

Now it's a free for all.


Sorry about that last bit, it must be the wrong time of the month.

[colin todd]

Dont apologise, el crusto, while your oestorgen levels may indeed bt depressed, your conclusions have an elelment of validity. According to some geezer from a large met fire authority, who recently rubbished one of our fire risk assessments (for which his bosses have sent an ''unreserved apology'') anyone with a bit of common sense can carry out an FRA. With regard to PAS 79, it is up to individual fire authorities, but it would seem unlikely to me that, if the principles were followed by a competent person, there would not be much grounds for rejection of the FRA as suitable and sufficient, particularly as CFOA were consultees in respect of the finished draft, and were represented on the review panel.

[wee brian]

Colin

Don't assume that because a CFOA  rep turned up at some meetings that you won't get FRAs rejecting the outcome. They are all independant and often like to make a show of it.

[colin todd]

yes but to be fair to them they are getting their act together through CFOA in the absence of getting advice and direction from your civil service friends.

[crusty]

Well!

“Competent person"  PAS 79 and all the other Fire Risk Assessment stuff falls into a big snot heap. From the top of the tree to the corner shop who is this “competent person".

What a load of rubbish, firms of "Fire Risk consultants" has risen out of the ground like weeds on a playing field, everyone likes a cheap band wagon and this is one. Until we get these words sorted out it no book will help us. Words are winning this battle but the only losers will be the company's having fires in 10 or 15yrs time.

( Not your firm)

Sorry but I don’t like the way things are going and if anyone throws this “competent person" line at me I will slam it back in their faces.

Still it's a nice little earner and looks good. I must say you've done well with the price!!!! I wish I had got there first; still the market is open like a pig’s belly, fat and ripe for those who dive in.

It looks like the Fire service is being ripped apart showing just how bad they are at managing Fire Safety. Fire Service personnel would go into fire safety for 2yrs then get out, the expertise has never been with the fire service. It’s been with a few dedicated Officers, Now those officers are leaving and they are opening the fire services.

Look out the fire authorities of Great Britain. They are beng opened up to show what a sham it all is. The only thing is some people who are questioning the fire authorities don’t know what they are on about. Some do.

I just hope in years to come "guides" come back out where people use them like bibles.

Time to get back in my pram.

[colin todd]

LOL its your cave you need to get back in, complete with candles. Like it or lump it prescription is dead. And though there is much in what you say the government will never revert to it unless there is a disaster. (By the way rose out the ground in 1982, so long B$ the workplace regs were invented to assist with my little girl's school fees. ) There are some very good officers enforcing fire safety so dont tar them all with the same brush. Those who are not yet great on the subject of FRA are mostly keen and willing to learn and therefore go cautiously. They are on a learning curve, but then so would anyone enforcing FRA be. An exception is one large english met authority with arrogant officers who are ill trained but think they know it all, so go around causing problems in their wake. But even they will learn--eventually!!!!

[crusty]

Sounds like the fire service is on the run. It's nice to see the robbers chasing the police for a change.

:-)

[Ken Taylor]

We've had this problem about competent persons and risk assessments for years in the general health and safety field - long before the fire community went the same way. Whilst there are various qualifications, registers of practitioners and consultants, etc., none of these are compulsory for the employer or person in control of the premises who can do the job him/herself if competent or else get someone else (who is) to 'assist'.

[colin todd]

But are the EHOs and HSE inspectors themselves competent Kenneth? Or are they like the some officers of a large met fire authority who, according to an official letter for the fire authority, actually did not recognize a suitable and suffcient fire risk assessment as such when shown it??? DUH!!!

[messy]

Colin - Let it go mate. You are getting obsessive again. You'll only make yourself ill.

[colin todd]

Not a chance. We are only just beginning.  Your arrogant chums need to learn that they cannot look at a document that the client has paid good money for, rubbish it, tell the client, in effect, it is not worth the paper it is printed on, tell them it is so worthless that it is not EVEN a fire risk assessment, tell them that they dont need to use consultants anyway, abuse their powers by issuing a contravention that there is No fire risk assessment, and then think its ok to simply say sorry very big mistake but see guv'nor I am not trained to know my arse from my elbow. Legal proceedings are in hand. Come to the trial if you wish.

[pd]

Yes please, are your clients appealing against an enforcement notice? If so when and where? Lessons always to be learned for the rest of us.