Fire doors in Residential care premises (Smoke seals)

[Tom Sutton]

I'm out on a controversial limb and I am saying there is no legal requirement for strips and seals.

They are liked as they are a cheap method of putting a fire officers mind at rest about the resistance of the door.

Do strips and seals work as effectively as we like to think they do? In real fires, what percentage work?

Piglet its not about legality its about a fire doors passing BS476 part 22, without intumescent seals it is unlikely to pass the test and the best it is likely to achieve would be 20mins. Therefore if you upgrade a part 8 door by adding intumescent seals you could achieve 30mins but do you really need 30mins FR in this case it appears the RA does.

[Tom W]

Guys sorry I am going off tack from the orginal question.

For the record I beleive he'd already got the right answer so im simply opening a debate.

I think when someone is served an enforcement notice to install strips and seals it is in the opinion of the fire officer that it won't meet 30 mins right?

It could just as easily be argued that it could.

So if you see a well made, well fitting fire door, why is it that a standard approach seems to be to put strips and seals on?

Ask yourself actually how effective are they? I am not nor have I ever been a fire fighter so I have not seen first hand fire scenes however I have heard from a few that have where these strips have either not worked or not fully worked.

So are people asking for strips and seals to ease their conscience because they are unwilling to make the judgement on the quality of the door?

I think if I were "enforced" by the fire and rescue service to install strips and seals costing me a lot of money when I beleive it not necessary, then yes i would want a "legal requirement" If the fire officer is using a legal process it should be backed up by a legality.

Please remember i am merely opening up a debate, im not saying this is right or wrong in all cases, and for the person who started this thread - the advice is listen to your risk assessor as this is just generalising.

[Tom Sutton]

Piglet you refer to strips and seals and each has entirely different functions but because you also refer to 30mins then I assume we are talking about intumescent seals. As for the opinion of the fire officer, what is that based on empirical knowledge or available standards? This has been discussed at length in a previous thread and that may be a good starting place. http://fire.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=4696.0

[deaconj999]

....and Bedrooms that lead on to circulation areas......per chance

[colin todd]

GFSM, if you are still not happy, I will happily charge a mere pittance to send someone round to give you a 1762th opinion.

[Mr. P]

Another view -
Res Care - by most definition are those needing help in everyday life. (infirm, elderly et-al.
So, Life Safety is the issue. Therefore need smoke seals. Intu strips - no.
Reason - time for intu strip to bulge off, physical  strength often required to open doors thereafter.
Residents should be out before intu strips have bulged.
Ah! But if the AFD is a good L1, they should be out before smoke seals except those in area of origin come into play.
*Each RA on it's merits*

[Tom W]

Piglet you refer to strips and seals and each has entirely different functions but because you also refer to 30mins then I assume we are talking about intumescent seals. As for the opinion of the fire officer, what is that based on empirical knowledge or available standards? This has been discussed at length in a previous thread and that may be a good starting place. http://fire.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=4696.0

Thanks Mr Sutton

[GaryD]

Mr P
The FRA actually said that to aid those carrying out a PHE, smoke seals would be more benificial. He said because each room had smoke detection in it, the fire would be in it's early stages anyway & therefore intumecent seals would not be activated at this stage. His concern was that during the initial stages of the evacuation, progress could be hampered by smoke escaping into the affected protected area.

[Auntie LIn]

Sorry fellas - I'm late at the party again, but hey, isn't that a woman's prerogative?

On the matter of intumescent seals and overpainting I'd just say that some types of seal are affected by paint.   Others aren't, but once you've got 5 coats of paint on the seal, how are you going to strip it back to put the next coat on?   Don't use a blowtorch or heat gun.   With some seal types if you use a chemical stripper you're also in trouble.

Oh, and on a PR trip - if you want a USB stick with all ASDMA's publications on it, send me your name & address.


Lin