London Fire Brigade Strikes

[Tom W]

Firemen striking on Bonfire Night want £10,000 pay rise and more time off

Firemen will go ahead with a strike on Bonfire Night after talks yesterday collapsed when they demanded a £10,000 pay rise.

The fire crews, who can already expect to pocket up to £50,000 a year after overtime, demanded the cash in exchange for switching to new shift patterns.

Fire Brigades Union papers seen by the Mail show they also asked for a one off £3,000 bribe from the fire brigade which is facing a 25 per cent budget cut.
A fireman

Preparing for battle: Firemen are demanding up to £10,000 more for a change in their shift pattern

And they called for three hours of overtime for every part of an hour they work after hours – meaning they could get three hour’s pay for a minute’s work.

The Fire Brigades Union were only prepared to sign a deal if their terms and conditions were fixed for another 20 years.

The package of proposals, which is being demanded by London crews who will strike on November 5 and 6  was described as ‘absurd’ by one fire brigade official.

A senior Whitehall official said: ‘They are on a different planet. This looks like a deliberate attempt to sabotage the talks by the utterly self serving Fire Brigades Union.’

The union yesterday met three London Fire Brigade negotiators but talks collapsed.
Firemen now work two nine-hour day shifts and then a 15-hour night shift, before taking four days off. The Fire Brigade wants to increase the length of the day shift to 11 hours, with a reduction to a 13-hour night shift.

London Firemen get London weighting of £5,021, which gives them a higher take home pay than a nurse, police constable, Army lieutenant or RAF pilot.

The firemen insisted on an increase in their London lump sum of 10 per cent above inflation over the next five years - when the fire brigade budget is being slashed by 25 per cent.

But union demands also included extra money for working weekends and holidays, a guaranteed ‘uninterrupted’ paid lunch break and five extra days of leave each year.

The FBU denied a formal proposal demanding extra cash had been ‘put on the table’. A spokesman said: ‘All that happened is that such a claim was mooted in an internal FBU document, that was never tabled, along with a large number of other possible negotiating positions.’

But Fire Minister Bob Neill said: ‘The FBU have set out a shopping list of demands that are totally out of touch with the rest of the public sector. I fear the safety of hard working members of the public in London is being put at risk as the FBU look to bolster their pay packets.’

Fire Brigade sources also expressed concern about new evidence of violence and intimidation against strike breakers.

A Facebook page was set up yesterday packed with references to ‘scabs’ and scum’ which piles abuse on contract firefighters who stood during a walkout on Saturday.

A series of messages passed between strikers makes clear the union’s determination to target strike breakers. ‘Let’s finish them off,’ one text read.

Another boasted: ‘Today we smashed their operation to run scab machines out of our stations’ and called for further ‘mass pickets’ and ‘more and longer strikes’.

And amid evidence that tube workers with the RMT union, run by hardliner Bob Crow, have bolstered picket lines against secondary picketing rules, another text sent on the say refers to ‘tube workers solidarity’.

A Fire Brigade source said: ‘There are serious concerns that this sort of intimidation and harassment towards fire crews could undermine their ability to carry on doing the best job for Londoners.’

London fire Commissioner, Ron Dobson said: ‘In this tight financial climate, the demand for a ten thousand pound pay rise was simply unaffordable and a non-starter.
‘It is not a good use of money and taxpayers would have been furious if we had agreed to these demands.’

Im sorry but walking out on bonfire night is just dangerous, I am fast losing sympathy when they seem to have a pretty good deal already.

Its one of the few professions where i think 90% of staff LOVE their job and yet they are pushing for more when so many counties are cutting service.

Do you agree with the best fire brigade in london?

[kurnal]

I dont know how I feel on this one Piglet, I am suspicious of the FBUs motives in this case but I trust the Daily Mail's standards of Journalism?? even less. 

[Tom W]

I feel slightly ashamed at posting anything from the daily hate so here is a link from the guardian! http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/oct/27/london-firefighters-strike-negotiations

I haven't been in the fire game as long as a lot of people but the majority of consultants i have come accross from the brigade have had such passion and an inner responsibility for their job and the people they protect which is what makes me think its madness striking on bonfire night.

Their shifts are changing yes and it will mean an inconvenience for a lot of people but when unemployment is high, money is tight and their are so many wanting to get into the F&RS they are on very thin ice

[Nearlybaldandgrey]

Obviously there are issues to do with the way the shift change is being introduced, the reaction to the management proposals plus the media isn't doing them many favours, particularly when they home in on the negatives such as the alleged intimidation of the people crewing their pumps, BUT in a time when people in industry are losing their jobs, having hours cut and a drop in wage, it doesn't look good when firefighters are demanding those sort of conditions.

I've spoken to friends outside the job who have little sympathy for the firefighters - mainly because of the reasons already stated.

Changing from 9/15 shifts will cause inconvenience, particularly where people have young children and have to commute but this is driven by the European worktime directive.

I've recently gone back onto shifts after time away. When I left, we worked 10/14 shifts, now we work 12/12's. Yes it's taken some getting used to and my working day, including commuting is nearer 14 hours, but it's twice every 8 days, not that bad really.

[Owen66]

Personally speaking, I think the most negative aspect of this is based on the comments yesterday at the 7/7 enquiry that firecrews refused to enter the tunnels despite a policeman jumping up and down on a live rail to show it was isolated.

Yes, there has to be procedure for these things and it may well have been misreported but the public don't forget these things easily.

Sympathy they most certainly will not have - particularly from those who have already seen huge changes to working practices and wages in other sectors

Regards

Owen

[jokar]

Before making too many comments about the strikes, I would suggest that we allget to know the whole story first, media coverage of many items isn't the best.  When the section 188 notice runs out the London firefighters will have no contract and no job but much worse than that the populace of London, including commuters and tourists as well as those who live there will only have AssetCo fire brigade.  A Compnay that has a number of retired London Principal and Senior Officers working for it to secure their future, as oppposed to the firefighters.  AssetCo are currently bidding for the whole of the London training including trainee and leadership and development.  If this becomes the model for Fire Brigades across the UK then the workforce of all Brigades will become much smaller and perhaps the reactive bit will be done by AssetCo and the proactive bit by non operational staff.  Very cost effective for each County Council and Metropolitan Authority to buy in services and not have a work force, saves on pensions as well.  The firefighters are trying to save their jobs for the next 40 years and trying to secure the populace of London an efficient fire brigade, not one where you have to have palques on the wall for someone to come to you.

As regards the 7/7 stuff, the firefighters were obeying orders from the Principal Officers in charge and told not to enter because of the threat of secondary devices and no knowledege that the current waactually completely switched off.  The media reports tell you this if you read them but no doubt when the whole thing is completed in 2011 we will all know all the answers.

[Davo]

Smell the management timing anyone

davo

ps anyone compared the shifts against the HSE fatigue factor model?

[Golden]

Where do I start on this one? Firstly the underlying reason behind the strike is the removal of pumps and jobs. The LFB aren't coming out and admitting it but its logical that pumps be removed at nights and weekends from the quieter stations which will save a lot of money without adding much to the risk. The FBU obviously oppose this hence the resistance to the 2 X 12 hour shifts. In current economic times I don't think its justifiable to keep those pumps on the run when they're largely doing nothing (nights and weekends) and the service could be streamlined and more effectively delivered by 2 X 12 hours. I believe the FBU will get more out of this situation if they sit and have meaningful talks with the brigade over savings rather than sabre rattling and putting peoples lives at risk; other services will have to endure cuts and I really fear for the organisation if the section 188 notice comes to fruition.

The Asset Co. cover is made up mainly of students from Manchester who have had two weeks training. At a house fire at the weekend it took them 20 minutes to attend then a further 25 minutes to get water on to the hydrant, after having laid hose out the wrong way, etc. The BA crews withdrew after a few minutes because of the 'conditions'. To say they were effective is a blatant lie. They were subject to a lot of abuse at the scene and were extremely upset - I wonder how many will turn up for work on Monday?

You'll ask how I know this - its because I had a long chat with someone who was involved in the incident.

Lastly the 7/7 scenario also distresses me, as a firefighter I expected to face some hazards in my career and have been to a number of terrorist incidents. Secondary devices are always a possibility but to have a blanket ban on approaching until the scene has been confirmed safe from secondaries is wrong in my opinion - the responders should be trained and be able to make judgements on the risk. Procedures such as deploying the minimum numbers of personnel in the hazard zone and 'snatch rescue' should be utilised along with strong command to evacuate as many victims as possible until the all clear has been given.

lastly I'm going to join the two scenarios together - if the FBU don't sensibly talk to the brigades about savings we'll end up with a fire service that lacks experience and staffed by fire fighters who won't take risks as they'll all be stood outside because its too dangerous. Anybody can pour water on a fire from outside but its only the well trained and dedicated that are prepared to enter buildings and take appropriate risks to safely and effectively fight a fire! I'm afraid there's arrogance and bloody mindedness on both sides that may make this scenario a reality.

[Phoenix]

I couldn't agree more, Golden.  It  requires both sides to look at the other side's point of view for a positive outcome to result from this.  If both sides examine the situation from all angles then perhaps they wouldn't be on opposing sides any more, perhaps they could see a joint way out to a better future.  Sadly, as usual, I doubt it will happen.

Stu

[Jim Creak]

The respect of the general public is what is really at stake.....the demands are selfish. The public pay the salaries, the public are losing their jobs over high local authority spending. The FBU are being unreasonable... It is beyond a joke.

The taxpayer certainly does not get anything like value for money from the £2 billion spent annually on the fire service, with a fortune wasted on inefficient use of staff.
Firefighters have to work only 142 shifts a year, made up of 71 night shifts and 71 day shifts, allowing them plenty of time to hold down second jobs. Yet, even with these limited hours, their pay is well above the public sector average.
Nationwide, the basic salary for a trained firefighter is £28,200 (excluding overtime), rising to £33,200 in London, significantly above the average earnings in the capital for police officers and nurses.
 With overtime, that figure will be increased to anything between £40,000 and £50,000. Moreover, a watch manager in charge of up to 12 firefighters is paid around £40,000 a year before overtime.
On top of this, most current firefighters are entitled to an excellent pension after 30 years of service once they have reached the age of 50, though, due to a Government reform of 2006, new recruits will have to complete 40 years’ service before they will be able to receive their pension.
Despite the protestations of the FBU, firefighting is seen as one of the best jobs in the ¬country. That is why there is no shortage of new recruits, with at least 27 applicants for every vacancy.
Nor do many firefighters leave before taking their pensions. Last year in London, just 15 employees, less than 0.3 per cent of the entire workforce, quit their jobs, a level of ¬stability unheard of in any other occupation.
The FBU might have exploited public sentimentality to protect their empire, but the reality is we no longer need this vast standing army of well-paid ¬professionals who, because of the nature of their work and shift patterns, spend so much time hanging round their stations or doing other jobs.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1324092/Fire-Brigades-Union-defends-jaw-dropping-perks-gross-inefficiencies.html?ito=feeds-newsxml#ixzz13jAkuFo5

[Tom W]

Well said Jim

I think its not as bad as they are making out, there will be a big(ish) shift change for them but they are on a good wage and they have a job!!

Oh and as for getting paid overtime I know a lot of people that do overtime EVERYDAY for nothing becuase they know that if they don't they won't have a job.

Its that kind of world unfortunately, like it or lump it and walk.

If they want £50k a year I imagine there is 10 people for each fire fighter that would do their job for £25k, thats what it boils down too

[Midland Retty]

I have little sympathy for the LFB firefighters on stike and I doubt the public have either.

The planned strike on bonfire night is a cynical and dangerous move by the FBU, who are in my view seriously losing the plot, and seriously losing credibility on this.

The strikes come at a time where everyone is facing hardships, job losses or changes to their working practices.

Strike action of this nature will have a negative impact on public sympathy for London Fire Brigade, and whether we like it or not reform has and will continue to effect the Fire Brigade.

Why should they cry out for wage rises when people in other sectors are subjected to pay freezes, pay cuts, or job losses.

Its not often I get political, but this strike action has angered me. Just what on earth do the FBU hope to gain?

The message from me is "Be grateful you have a job "

[Golden]

Just to say don't believe all you read in the mail - or the statistics spouted by some brigades either!

Just to put a few things right in the previous posts. The strikes are not about wage demands its about changes in conditions - i.e. the change to 12/12 shifts which may lead to pumps being removed and loss of posts (not redundancies probably as there's about to be a mass exodus following shift changes in the late 70s).

The figure of £33,200 includes London weighting that most public sector workers in London are entitled to, most police officers in London will earn more than a fire fighter; also it does take about two years to become fully trained. The pension comes after deductions of 11% from the wages for 30 years - if the money had been invested from the early years it would be a nice pot of money to pay out but unfortunately this was seen as revenue by the local authorities and spent as it came in. As for second jobs yes a lot do but then again many people could have second jobs if they were prepared to work all night, Christmas and bank holidays etc. - its still a 42 hour week whichever way you dress it up.

I only post to put a few things right; I'm not defending this strike (see my earlier post) but it is important to know the facts rather than repeat DM rhetoric.

[nearlythere]

Correct me if I'm wrong here but don't the majority of our trough hoggers at Westminster have second or third or even forth jobs?

[deaconj999]

(X)F&RS are from Mars, LFB are from Venus.............