Storage within stairways of blocks of flats.

[nearlythere]

For those unsure about the risk of motor cycles in the common areas of flats might want to read this.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-11706852

[lyledunn]

Nearlythere,
Indeed! I often wonder why houses are allowed to be converted in to flats without insistence on a secondary MOE. If arson is so prevalent why do we continue to let such places have such a fire load in the single MOE? I was in an HMO today. Three storeys of rickety wooden stairs but as far as the Licensing Authority was concerned, secondary MOE was not required as long as the L3 alarm system was provided in the common areas as usual. There was no motorbike in the common hall, just two mountain bikes chained to the gas service pipe. A number of  half empty tins of gloss paint and a roll of discarded carpet were also helping to clutter the area immediately in front of the final exit! I am sure that this is a common UK wide problem and not just a feature of our dear Neverlearn Land!
Regards,
Lyle Dunn

[nearlythere]

Nearlythere,
Indeed! I often wonder why houses are allowed to be converted in to flats without insistence on a secondary MOE. If arson is so prevalent why do we continue to let such places have such a fire load in the single MOE? I was in an HMO today. Three storeys of rickety wooden stairs but as far as the Licensing Authority was concerned, secondary MOE was not required as long as the L3 alarm system was provided in the common areas as usual. There was no motorbike in the common hall, just two mountain bikes chained to the gas service pipe. A number of  half empty tins of gloss paint and a roll of discarded carpet were also helping to clutter the area immediately in front of the final exit! I am sure that this is a common UK wide problem and not just a feature of our dear Neverlearn Land!
Regards,
Lyle Dunn

Indeed Lyle but being flats does not automatically mean the requirement for a secondary MOE.
The think the problem with factoring the possibility arson into building design would be endless "but what ifs". I think it much better to deal with it by risk assessment which would include building security and maintenance of escape routes.
This will continue, in some places, until a meaningful policing policy is implimented by the EA, which is doubtful.
In the case of what happened in my initial post the owner of the bike should be considered for prosecution as this was a very serious near miss. But the legislation does not apply here yet.

[Golden]

A few years ago there was a serial arsonist at work in the Haringey/Hackney area who was targeting blocks of flats and setting alight motorbikes, prams, etc. - often topping up the fire loads with some extra materials brought from outside. The fires resulted in a number of rescues including many from roofs and balconies and residents were ready to jump in many instances. We are also aware of the practice of pulling wheelie bins into doorways and staircases and setting them alight.

The separation is obviously vital in these instances and keeping the area sterile is a management (often absent in HMOs) issue that needs to be reinforced on tenancy agreements. Maybe in these instances - especially with the wooden staircases as mentioned by Lyle - we should be looking at a type of sprinkler/suppression for any risk in common areas? I realise this is against all perceived wisdom but where management can't be guaranteed it may work.

[kml]

The Fire and Rescue Services (Northern Ireland) Order 2006 - Article 50 states that domestic premises are excepted from the order and defines domestic premises as follows

“domestic premises” means premises occupied as a private dwelling (including a stair, passage, garden, yard, garage, outhouse or other appurtenance of such premises which is used in common by the occupants of more than one such dwelling), but does not include a house in multiple occupation;"

I believe by this, for better or worse, that the common areas of flats are outside the scope of the NI Order, unlike the RRO and the Fire Service are not the EA.

[nearlythere]

The Fire and Rescue Services (Northern Ireland) Order 2006 - Article 50 states that domestic premises are excepted from the order and defines domestic premises as follows

“domestic premises” means premises occupied as a private dwelling (including a stair, passage, garden, yard, garage, outhouse or other appurtenance of such premises which is used in common by the occupants of more than one such dwelling), but does not include a house in multiple occupation;"

I believe by this, for better or worse, that the common areas of flats are outside the scope of the NI Order, unlike the RRO and the Fire Service are not the EA.

Quite correct KML but there is a little confusion for some in that its website information on the new legislation states the opposite.
Not unless there are secret plans in place to amend the Order my interpretaion has always been as you say.

[Tom Sutton]

Similar to the Scots view and am I right in thinking you intend using the CLG guidance which is likely to cause problems with the sleeping accommodation guide?

[nearlythere]

Similar to the Scots view and am I right in thinking you intend using the CLG guidance which is likely to cause problems with the sleeping accommodation guide?

Yes. According to the website CLG guides will be used.

[kml]

Nearlythere - You are right about the NIFRS website referring to common areas of demestic premises as relevant premises - the confusion arises as the order states that common areas become relevant premises in relation to facilities provided for firefighters (dry risers etc). We feel that this does not give us access, however there is an opinion that self-closing doors etc in these areas can be considered as facilities for firefighters which is why the issue has arisen. A definitive answer is being sorted out by HQ in time for the 15th Nov.

We can always fall back on the old Workplace Regulations as for some reason these remain in force as secondary legislation in N Ireland for another tenuous access route to common areas if necessary.

[nearlythere]

Nearlythere - You are right about the NIFRS website referring to common areas of demestic premises as relevant premises - the confusion arises as the order states that common areas become relevant premises in relation to facilities provided for firefighters (dry risers etc). We feel that this does not give us access, however there is an opinion that self-closing doors etc in these areas can be considered as facilities for firefighters which is why the issue has arisen. A definitive answer is being sorted out by HQ in time for the 15th Nov.

We can always fall back on the old Workplace Regulations as for some reason these remain in force as secondary legislation in N Ireland for another tenuous access route to common areas if necessary.

But we must remember that the requirement is for the maintenance of equipment provided for the protection of firefighters which is not a Fire Risk Assessment.
Additionally my view is that fire doors are there to protect the means of escape for normal dwelling users and not for persons to remain in a building to firefight. BS5588 Pt 1 says that "This code provides for residents and visitors on any storey to be able to escape safely from the building without outside assistance should a fire occur."
Could you argue that a firefighter is a visitor?
We also have in the Order:-
Special case: temporary suspension of fire safety duties
32.—(1) If in relation to any relevant premises the application of any of the fire safety duties would prevent a person who falls within paragraph (2) from carrying out his operational duties, the fire safety duties in question shall be deemed not to apply in relation to those relevant premises during the period when he is carrying out his operational duties.

(2) A person falls within this paragraph if he is–

(a)a member of the armed forces of the Crown or of a visiting force;
(b)a constable;
(c)a member of any emergency service; or
(d)of such other description as may be prescribed.
(3) A person subject to the fire safety duties which, by virtue of paragraph (1) are deemed not to apply in relation to relevant premises shall, during the period mentioned in that paragraph, ensure so far as is possible the safety of relevant persons in the event of fire in those premises.

(4) For the purposes of this Article, “operational duties”, in relation to a person falling within paragraph (2), means anything done–

(a)while the person is at work in the capacity in which he falls within that paragraph; and
(b)which the person is required to do by virtue of being at work in that capacity.

[kml]

Nearlythere, I agree with you on the doors, and I think that common areas fall outside the NI Order - as far as I remember Mr Todd highlighted this difference (from RRO) in one of his courses I was at a couple of years ago, so it must be right.

[nearlythere]

Nearlythere, I agree with you on the doors, and I think that common areas fall outside the NI Order - as far as I remember Mr Todd highlighted this difference (from RRO) in one of his courses I was at a couple of years ago, so it must be right.

Yes. We do seem to agree that common areas including escape routes are within the definition of part of a dwellings and as such are not relevant areas.
Wonder why the website says otherwise.

This quirk, either by accident or design, is the same as the Scotland FS Order.