Fatalities as a result of missing smoke seals?

[shaunmckeever]

I am carrying out a little bit of research to try and identify if fatalities have occurred in corridors as a result of fires in hotel bedrooms where cold smoke seals have not been fitted and where smoke detection is installed in the bedrooms. Not sure if anyone can help here but if you can I'd be grateful.

[CivvyFSO]

I don't think you will find any.

[Tom W]

ditto

and you cannot guarantee that if smoke seals were fitted that they would of worked properly. I would stop now if I were you 

[nearlythere]

ditto

and you cannot guarantee that if smoke seals were fitted that they would of worked properly. I would stop now if I were you 

I remember reading on here that someone was prosecuted under the Order with one issue being that the RP did not fit smoke seals on fire doors, not that the doors had to be capable of withstanding the passage of smoke at ambient temperatures.
Two different things.
I have seen plenty of double doors fitted with smoke seals but you could drive a bus between the leaves. They were fitted with smoke seals - so box ticked.

[Tom W]

They are starting to be something that really gets my back up.

They work fine in test situations but im pretty much sure you can speak to FFs and they will say that in a live fire that they do not activate as they are supposed to, thus leaving gaps, thus not improving the resistance.

As far as I can see there is no legal requirement for them and yet it seems to be one of the most commonly requested things with threat of prosecution if not installed!

[Fishy]

They are starting to be something that really gets my back up.

They work fine in test situations but im pretty much sure you can speak to FFs and they will say that in a live fire that they do not activate as they are supposed to, thus leaving gaps, thus not improving the resistance.

As far as I can see there is no legal requirement for them and yet it seems to be one of the most commonly requested things with threat of prosecution if not installed!

Piglet:
The OP was specifically querying cold smoke seals, not intumescent seals (which is what I think you’re talking about)?  Cold smoke seals will work very well if properly fitted and maintained but, in my experience, they very rarely are.  I would, personally speaking, be amazed if this had ever caused a fatality, but I have no hard data to back that opinion up.

You’re right inasmuch as there is no specific ‘legal requirement’ for either fire or smoke seals on doorsets.  Generally speaking, though, both cold smoke seals & intumescent seals are necessary parts of an installation designed to meet the safety performance specifications defined in the relevant National Guidance (British Standards, AD-B, Scottish Technical Standards or whatever), so they cannot be simply ignored, whatever ones’ personal opinion or their efficacy is.  As generally accepted good industry practice any Court would be likely to regard those documents as the ‘benchmark’ of acceptability & compliance with the Law. 

[Tom W]

You are right im am querying the effectiveness of intumescent strips.

It has been argued about before on here so i will leave it there 

[shaunmckeever]

Thanks for the replies so far. It is pretty much what I thought but some Fire Authorities will have their fun and games and still insist on them without providing and good reason. I'd be interested in knowing how Hilton are getting on with their case.

[CivvyFSO]

How about looking at it from this point of view:

How many lives have been potentially saved by strips and seals over the years? i.e. How many hotels have had fires where, due primarily to strips and seals, the fire has been very much contained to the room of origin?

Just because there are no deaths attributed directly to the lack of them, does not mean they do not have their place in fire safety provisions.

[Tom W]

I believe the containment can be attributed to the affectiveness of the fire doors rather than the strips and seals.

Im not a fire fighter but if any are reading this can they enlighten us on how many they have seen FULLY activated after a fire?

[Midland Retty]

Piglet

I can only count a handful of times where I've seen intumescent strips activated following a blaze.

I have on countless occassions seen where cold smoke seals have done their job and prevented the passage of smoke from the room of fire origin onto adjacent means of escape.

[Tom W]

Thanks Midland Fire.

I wasnt trying to trip anyone up but im geniunely interested.

So Cold Smoke seals gets a big thumbs up but intumescent strips do not

[Midland Retty]

Hi Piglet

I put my head above the parapet sometime ago about intumescent seals and got lambasted.

I do see the need for intumescent seals in some situations, but I personally question just how effective they really are based on the amount of times I've seen them activate.

 

[Tom W]

Thats exactly where im coming from too.

If you have something so widely asked for it should be proven, it real situations that it works. Forget the fact that it is cheap to install so its worth the "risk".

Im more of the opinion that if it is not working, it needs to be redeveloped/designed until it does. Its a good idea but it doesn't seem to work (from what I have been told)

[Tom Sutton]

Check out http://fire.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=4696.0 a lengthy discussion on this topic.

I don't believe you can come to any conclusions considering real fire situations it has the be a scientific test under a controlled conditions i.e. British Standard.

My interpretation of the above thread is a well fitting fire door (very important) or substantial door, with out intumescent seals, should give you 20mins, plus the time it takes for the fire to totally involve the room and 30mins plus with seals. So it depends how long you require the door to hold a fire in check.