Fair trading?

[SeaBass]

A recent FIA article (http://www.fia.uk.com/en/Information/Details/index.cfm/obj_id/C7F924D7-30A9-4D57-A950BE0F88E40014 ) has raised the issue of Local Authority Fire Services operating commercial operations via arms length companies. The author isn’t challenging the practice, but is concerned at the use of LFS branding to support such businesses.  

I have had dealings with serving Ffs who promote their own part time business’s when carrying out Local Authority business, (I know that most brigades prohibit this but it still goes on) so how on earth can LFAs ensure that their arms length business’s don’t benefit from an unfair advantage through association and/or illicit promotion? And, as has been previously pointed out, doesn’t such an arrangement create a potential conflict of interests?

In a similar vein, is it right for government documents to promote the FPA as the National Fire Safety Organisation rather than A National Fire Safety Organisation?  So far as I am aware the FPA are a limited (not for profit) company, and whilst they provide some valuable and unique services, in many, if not most fields of their work they are a commercial operation competing in an open market.

After many years of working in positions where propriety was drilled into you and was/is a core requirement of the role and business, in my opinion, based on what is currently accepted as propriety behaviour, such practices are of a dubious nature.  

[kurnal]

Couldn't agree more on all topics Ruby.

I believe the FS college used to do the same using instructors seconded from fire brigades to carry out commercial risk assessments to generate funds for the college.

Are these organisations really arms reach organisations and are they competing on a level playing field with the private sector? Are the personnel costs, accommodation costs,  IT and admin support, access to licensed documents (remember fire brigades get British standards and technical indexes for peanuts compared to us) all separately financed and transparent in the accounts? I don't know but somehow I doubt it.

As far as the FPA are concerned whilst I agree with all you say at least they are absolutely upfront in declaring that there commercial arms are simply cash cows to generate income for what they see as their good works. And that doesn't seem so bad because the FPA cant put you or I in prison or  fine us.

[Davo]

Ruby

Used the FPA once, large 4 storey building. Didn't bring his plans, talked to a few people and was off in 3 hours
£1500 quid down the toilet closely followed by his report

Got a pro in to do the job right (no names no pack drill eh )


davo

[Midland Retty]

I agree with all you have said Ruby

No problem with the FPA having their commerical arm, but Fire Authorities should just stick to enforcing and thats it.

Ive said it before it would be a bit like a copper pulling me over for a bald tyre, threatening to fine me for it, unless of course I were to buy a new tyre from the Bobby's Tyre Services Ltd (a trading arm of the local constabulary)

Bobbys Tyres - get it? Bobby as in policeman....no?...... oh forgedditt!

[SeaBass]

I hear what you’re saying Davo, and as a former strong and long time supporter of the FPA I have some thoughts of my own on the way the association has developed in the last five years or so. However, my intention in this posting was to generate debate over what I feel are dubious business practices.

Following on from Kurnal’s point. My concern is not so much at the way in which the FPA market their services, but the way in which Government documents reference the company, thereby promoting them to the exclusion of other equally professional service providers, and by implication providing an official seal of approval.   

Midland, If the situation with the LFAs and their arms reach companies were as blattant as your scenario, then I’d be less concered. But it is’nt. It’s a very sublte and quite frankly powerful promotion, as is that of the FPA by central government

[Midland Retty]

Midland, If the situation with the LFAs and their arms reach companies were as blattant as your scenario, then I’d be less concered. But it is’nt. It’s a very sublte and quite frankly powerful promotion, as is that of the FPA by central government

Fair comment Ruby, I appreciate what you mean.

The point I was trying to get across, and what worries me most, is that there is too much opportunity for an enforcing authority to say "We've found x, y and z wrong with your premises and will take action against unless you employ the service of one our associate consultants who will put those failings right for a cost"

[Mike Buckley]

Or, "Oh. you've employed one of our associate consultants so it must be OK"!

[Dinnertime Dave]

I have real issues with this practice and that from an ex commercial training instructor. I was in a position where I have access to the details of companies that have had fires and was therefore in a position that gave me an unfair advantage over the competition.

As an inspecting officer I have also been in the uncomfortable position of thinking a fire risk assessment was not suitable or sufficient only to see a fire services badge on the front. 

[Chris Houston]

As an inspecting officer I have also been in the uncomfortable position of thinking a fire risk assessment was not suitable or sufficient only to see a fire services badge on the front. 

What did you do about that?

[Dinnertime Dave]

As an inspecting officer I have also been in the uncomfortable position of thinking a fire risk assessment was not suitable or sufficient only to see a fire services badge on the front. 

What did you do about that?

Welcome back Chris

I am afraid I am a man of principle, I tell them that it is not good enough, then deal with the fall out later. 

[Chris Houston]

Good. Glad to hear it. Was hoping that to be the case. You'd have provoked a rank from me if you'd swept it under the carpet. Well done, Sir.

I'm back due to a little holiday in rome. The other half joined me for a week but was good enough to leave me here alone for the second week.

[Tom W]

I lodged a complaint with the HSE about the wording on their website, promoting the FPA.

[colin todd]

Pesonally, I am all for family planning, and any association that hands out free condoms gets my vote. There are too many people in the world already. I stopped at 3, which is enough for anyone. And another thing, they should not let cousins marry cousins, as the results are often fire safety officers (with the exception of The Retty, who is the coolest fire safety officer in the whole or Bordersley Green).

[Midland Retty]

I thank my Rt. Hon. colleague for his "kind"(?) comments, although my being "cool" is a vicious rumour.
I should also point out that you would never catch the likes of me in a place like Bordesley Green.

I'm a 'yam yam' you see, Lord Todd, not a "Brummie", and thus regarded as a hostile foreigner in the badlands of B'ham. I would probably be set on fire, pistol whipped or subjected to Adrian Chiles' dulcit tones for 24 hours solid if I were ever to stray into brummie territory.

[Dinnertime Dave]

Pesonally, I am all for family planning, and any association that hands out free condoms gets my vote. There are too many people in the world already. I stopped at 3, which is enough for anyone. And another thing, they should not let cousins marry cousins, as the results are often fire safety officers (with the exception of The Retty, who is the coolest fire safety officer in the whole or Bordersley Green).

At last Colin I have caught you out. Not all of us married our cousins some of us married our sisters.