Fire doors in a "domestic" Bungalow??????

[Midland Retty]

Hi William

Based on what you have described,and bare in mind i haven't seen the building, I do tend to agree with you.

Actually I would argue that this type of supported living is safer than a domestic dwelling scenario for many reasons.

As someone suggested earlier do look at the Adult Placement guide for an additional angle on your scenario.

And please do challenge the fire inspector involved. Why not speak to the officer's station commander , to see if he or she agrees with their officers approach.

If all else fails then hey why not call their bluff, nothing to loose in going for a determination. It costs nothing although I realise time is money. But you take my point.

With regards to your hapless fire officer, they do default to benchmark standards and publications when it comes to enforcement, its up to the RP to suggest alternatives, not the fire officer and it is easy to become sceptical and infer all inspectors are code hugging prescription junkies, as Jokar suggested.

If alternatives are put forward the officer needs to be satisfied they will work, thats not always easy, but I suggest in this scenario common sense will hopefully prevail.

Are you satisfied the service users will evacuate without causing too much of a challenge for staff?

[nearlythere]

MR. I'm a little confused by your response to William.

"Actually I would argue that this type of supported is safer than a domestic dwelling scenario for many reasons."


"Are you satisfied the service users will evacuate without causing too much of a challenge for staff?"

Does your second statement not challenge your first?

[Midland Retty]

No... well yes, no, possibly,errrrr maybe, shut it.

It was an afterthough, an aside.

I was just making sure that the service users won't present any major challenging behaviour issues at this particular property, because that can change the risk.

[nearlythere]

No... well yes, no, possibly,errrrr maybe, shut it.

It was an afterthough, an aside.

I was just making sure that the service users won't present any major challenging behaviour issues at this particular property, because that can change the risk.

Are you declaring a U turn?   

[Midland Retty]

Nope I stand by all Ive said, with the caveat that challenging behaviour issues need to be considered.

[William 29]

Hi William

And please do challenge the fire inspector involved. Why not speak to the officer's station commander , to see if he or she agrees with their officers approach.

If all else fails then hey why not call their bluff, nothing to loose in going for a determination. It costs nothing although I realise time is money. But you take my point.

It's gone to the FSO's line manager and group manager and they both agree with the FSO.  I have formlulated 2 letters on behalf of the client setting out our position.  As we don't agree with the issue of providing FD30s doors I can't see the determination route as an option??  The decision to appeal any Notice if served is the clients but if it goes to Court there are risks of cost and then still having to provide the doors.  From experience very few clients will take this all the way.  If they did I think a positive outcome is achievable.

[jokar]

As I said, very little thought with regard to risk and lots of prescription.  When you think that in court you have to prove that death or seriou injury will have to or has occurred it seems a little ridiculous to suggest that people will die or suffer injury in a ground floor premises with an L2 fire Alarm system and solid doors.

[Midland Retty]

Hi William

And please do challenge the fire inspector involved. Why not speak to the officer's station commander , to see if he or she agrees with their officers approach.

If all else fails then hey why not call their bluff, nothing to loose in going for a determination. It costs nothing although I realise time is money. But you take my point.

As far as Im aware this is exactly the type of situation a determination could be used for, you would need to obviously inform the fire authority of your intention to pursue this option.

The dteermination process is to be used where a fire authority nor ROP cannot agree on remedying a perceived failing

It's gone to the FSO's line manager and group manager and they both agree with the FSO.  I have formlulated 2 letters on behalf of the client setting out our position.  As we don't agree with the issue of providing FD30s doors I can't see the determination route as an option??  The decision to appeal any Notice if served is the clients but if it goes to Court there are risks of cost and then still having to provide the doors.  From experience very few clients will take this all the way.  If they did I think a positive outcome is achievable.

Are you getting confused between appealing a notice, and seeking a determination from the SoS?

[William 29]

Are you getting confused between appealing a notice, and seeking a determination from the SoS?



Enforcement Notice has just been served.  As far as I am aware once this has happend you can't go to a determination?  We only have right of appeal.

[Midland Retty]

Apologies William I didn't realise the notice had actually been served.

[Cullenloon]

Where the responsible person has failed to comply with the Order and cannot agree with the enforcing authority the measures which are necessary to remedy the failure, the Secretary of State may be approached to make a a determination of the dispute.

Both parties must make the approach.

This approach can be made when a notice has been served by the enforcing authority on the responsible person.

If a determiniation is made the the enforcing authority may not take enforcement action that would be in conflict with the determination. RRO Guidance Note No 2 provides more detail.

[kurnal]

Trouble is it seems that the RP appears to hold the view that he has done sufficient to comply with the order. So the determination process does not appear to be the best way to deal with this case.

[Midland Retty]

Im not sure why you think that. It is the ideal process to be used, the role of the SoS is to judge on which side is right, especially when both think they are right, or both cannot agree.

Unfortunately in this situation it would be reliant on the Fire Authority to also agree to go for the determination.

[mr angry]

Surely the responsible person has to agree that there is a need for improvements to be made, but simply disagrees with the technical solution to be used before it can go to determination?

[kurnal]

Thats the issue Mr Angry. The determination process is only to be used where the Responsible Person agrees with the fire authority that he has failed to comply with the Order.

In this case he doesn't agree so the only way he can challenge the requirements of the Fire Authority's   enforcement notice is to use the appeal process.

The reason the determination process is limited in this way is to differentiate between legal compliance which is a matter for the courts and the procedure  for the resolution of of disputes relating to technical matters.