Fire doors in a "domestic" Bungalow??????

[CivvyFSO]

William

ADB Vol 1 only refers to 'unsupervised' groups in 0.22, as does ADB Vol 2.

Don't forget that if you are going to appeal you only have 21 days from the issue of the notice.

[Tom Sutton]

so the only way he can challenge the requirements of the Fire Authority's enforcement notice is to use the appeal process.

Check out article 36(5) the EA cannot issue a EN after a determination, in this case the EA has been issued a EN therefore could not comply with art 36(5) consequently could not go to determination, Kurnal is spot on, an appeal is the only way.

Not relevant in this case but may be of interest.  http://www.communities.gov.uk/documents/fire/pdf/1497577.pdf

[Midland Retty]

I appreciate the differences between an appeal and determination

In my opinion this is a disagreement over a "technical" aspect of the fire precautions required. Therefore it is surely more appropriately dealt with by process of determination, otherwise it is left to a layperson (ie a Magistrate)  to do decide who is right.

Secondly Im perhaps being somewhat hopeful,but I believe the more the determination process is used the more lines in the sand we get.

[Tom Sutton]

I would suggest when an EA issues an enforcement notice they must consider art 36 check art 30(3) because if they have agreed to go to a determination then they cannot issue an EN. In this case an EN is in force therefore they would have to withdraw to go to determination art 36(5) or the RP could appeal. As far as I can see nobody disagrees that discrimination isn't the best option but the legislation inhibits the process.

[William 29]

Any Notice itself when issued gives 2 rights of appeal on the notes at the end of the Notice.

1.  To a magistrates court, within 21 days.

2.  Determination by the Secretary of State, the EA must be notified within 14 days from the date the Notice was issued.

[William 29]

William

ADB Vol 1 only refers to 'unsupervised' groups in 0.22, as does ADB Vol 2.

Don't forget that if you are going to appeal you only have 21 days from the issue of the notice.

I'm not sure of your point here?  the group is supervised by 24/7 waking staff so therefore the risk is less and exceeds the recommendations of ADB???

[CivvyFSO]

My point being that you are making references to paragraphs that clearly do not apply to the situation you describe. It doesn't exceed the recommendations of ADB as ADB does not make reference to a supervised group.  This need for supervision is because, I would imagine, the occupants are deemed to be at risk without it. It is not in excess of the recommendations, the supervision is there to cater for a specific risk.

[Dinnertime Dave]

There seems to be so much confusion here that we can`t decide which guidance document is the most relevant to use. if ever there was a situation for determination this is it.

Has the fire service told you which document they have used? Have you told them which one you think is relevant? although I have to say it all sound to late now. The fire service appaer very confident if they have issued an Enforcement Notice.

Questions -

Is this action as a result of an audit? - We don`t issue an Enforcement Notice without carrying out a full audit, apparently it helps if it gets ugly later.
Using the audit scoring system does this really come out EN?
Is there any other items on the EN?
Has the EN got a long completion date? If they give a long completion date it allows for its withdrawal if appealed.   

[Clevelandfire 3]

I agree Midland Fire / Dinnertime Dave. A determination would seem the only sensible option.

[CivvyFSO]

Determination of disputes by Secretary of State
36.—(1) This article applies where—

(a)a responsible person or any other person mentioned in article 5(3) has failed to comply with any provision of this Order or of any regulations made under it; and

You cannot use a determination for this. Unless William came up with some other answer, i.e. If he suggested that fitting self closers alone would give a suitable level of protection. What William is saying is that the premises complies as it is, so I believe that the only option is to appeal the notice.

I believe the determination regarding HD in hotel bedrooms had a little addition to it stating that it shouldn't have come through the determination process.

[Tom Sutton]

Could it not be interpreted that the EA are saying he has failed to comply with "General Fire Precautions" art 4(a) or art4(b) and that is why an EN was issued?

[William 29]

Update:-  Determination requested - EA took 6 days to respond and rejected request for determination.  Request to go to appeal went the next day EA stated that time for appeal has run out.

I would assume that the request to go to detremination has the effect of suspending the Notice as does the request for appeal??  So there are 6 days to play with.  I also think the EA are working on 21 days where by my understanding we have 28 days right of appeal under one of the Articles but I can locate which one as yet?

[Tom Sutton]

1. I would assume that the request to go to determination has the effect of suspending the Notice as does the request for appeal?
2. I also think the EA are working on 21 days
3. My understanding we have 28 days right of appeal under one of the Articles but I can locate which one as yet?

1. The only thing I can find is, if a determination is being considered the FA cannot issue an EN. Art 30(1) nothing about suspending the EN

2. It looks like the FA is using, 35(1)

3. The only reference to 28 days I can find is in 30(2)(c)

[William 29]

1. I would assume that the request to go to determination has the effect of suspending the Notice as does the request for appeal?
2. I also think the EA are working on 21 days
3. My understanding we have 28 days right of appeal under one of the Articles but I can locate which one as yet?

1. The only thing I can find is, if a determination is being considered the FA cannot issue an EN. Art 30(1) nothing about suspending the EN

2. It looks like the FA is using, 35(1)

3. The only reference to 28 days I can find is in 30(2)(c)

As far I can find the 21 days to appeal a notice is correct.  I can't find any reference to a determination suspending a notice.

[Tom Sutton]

As far I can find the 21 days to appeal a notice is correct.  I can't find any reference to a determination suspending a notice.

Neither can I however if the correct sequence is followed then there should be no need. In the initial stages when you are discussing the findings of the FRA with the IO and you cannot agree with the FA that's is time when you should ask for a determination before an EN has been issued. The FA has to wait until after the determination findings are complete before an EN can be issued and must take in to account that determination when issuing the EN. (Art 30 (1) "subject to article 36")

This does not help you in your situation and maybe its time for solicitors advice.