Fire safety Signs

[Jim Creak]

Psuedonym, there has never been a European Standard for fire safety signs! The adoption of ISO 7010 will be the first and only European Standard for Safety Signs... It has pained me for the last 15 years to hear people give credability to a European bureaucratic c*ck up.

I was at a launch of a BAFE specified accreditation for Emergency Lighting at the Houses of Parliament last night to find that the BAFE display and printed publicity material was illustrated with escape route signs that do not conform. Emblazoned with the phrase   "Promoting Quality in Fire Safety" so much for 3rd party accreditation! to add insult to injury the event was in the Jubilee Rooms above our precious old parliamentary chamber....the room no longer than 20 Metres and no wider than 6 metres with 2 escape doors one signed not to BS 5499 but to ISO 7010/ ISO 16069  at one end and one signed totally incorrectly with Euro sign derivitive at the other......so much for emergency lighting installers!

The real world craves STANDARDISATION for the sake of understanding and safety and the implementation relies heavily on the integrity of designers, installers, commissioners and maintenance professionals as well as risk assessors carrying out audit and review to put right that which is clearly a potential risk. As I have said consistently since 1996.....15 long years..... signs are only effective if they are intuitively understood using safety signs that are not is a disaster waiting to happen. Playing pictionary with peoples lives should not be an option.

[Psuedonym]

Sorry Jim, I only meant the word to be taken in it's literal meaning not in any legal capacity.

Although no longer my field, I too am still pained to see these designs flooding our country. It's a marketing fact that throwing enough subtle hints will sell any idea to the masses and this is one example. (look at our leaders in those hallowed grounds to see a terrific example of mind games winning over facts)

My views were formed many moons ago following a very interesting course at a certain sign manufacturer and stayed ever since. Unfortunately as your latest experiences prove, there's a lot of education and standardisation and even policing needed but it's marketing which will always win.
If risk assessors are ignoring the MoE standards then it's going to be long time before there will be any change.  

[Fishy]

Thanks Tom and Jim, just one more question, until ISO 7010 is adopted, should I tell consultants for our building projects to use BS5499-4 or BS ISO 16069 2004 or both? Thanks a lot for your help

+1: for the sake of us non-specialists, if we are specifying standards for the design, installation & maintenance of emergency exit signage, I'd be very grateful for Jim's definitive advice as to what is/are is the correct currect 'best practice' standard(s) to refer to?

[Jim Creak]

BS 5499 Part 4 2000 is the document that should be refered to for escape route sign design and application guidance. Implementation of this standard will give...Compliance.....Conformance and....Performance.....for those that require 3rd Party accreditation.

[TFEM]

I read that EN 7010 will effectively become "European law" but that existing signage will not be expected to be torn down and replaced, only that new signage should conform.
Surely not replacing existing (man chasing fridge) non-conforming signage, will be an illegal act and will lead to a greater mix of Euro and BS signage?
How are we supposed to advise our customers correctly when this ambiguity exists?
John

[jayjay]

Going Back to the original question. This site allows downloading and printing of all safety signs. They can be sized to your requirements etc.

 http://www.selfprintsigns.co.uk/?page_id=1211

What standard you wish to use is up to you.

[Jim Creak]

I am not sure I understand the last posting " What standard you wish to use is up tp you" What does this actually mean? What are the choices in your opinion?

Having just reviewed the site recommended I have looked at 2 safety signs illustrated....Fire Extinguisher location sign and Escape Route location sign neither of which conform to any known international nor domestic standard for fire safety signs.

According to this site you have a choice of colour for hazard signs which is illegal under the health and safety(safety signs and signals)regulations.

The objective of ISO 7010 is to harmonise all these differences to ensure no misunderstanding. The power of adoption as an EN is that there is an obligation for all member states to revise domestic standards.

[jayjay]

I responded to the original post If you do not like them do not use them.

[Jim Creak]

Again I have to say I do not understand your comment.....This is not a personal thing...preference on graphical symbols is not based on subjective abstract appreciation...it is based on the standardised graphical symbol with the best intuitive understanding....We are not in art or graphic appreciation personal preference or personal choice. Choice is not an option... The graphical symbols for life safety are standardised to ensure comprehension, understanding and to influence evacuee behaviour......without clear intuitive understanding there is no influence. All other options increase the risk matrix... The website you recommended did not reflect best practice and in my opinion was worthless.

[BCM]

I read with great interest,relief and not best hidden howls of delight, Jim's article "Sign Language" (FRM Journal - May).  Really glad to see the demise of fridge freezer man and the adoption of ISO 7010.  Will this really end the confusion of escape route signs? Will EN 7010 be retrospective? Will BS fire exit signs become extinct? What will happen to HTM 65? Who will be responsible for the emptying of the construction worlds shed full of these awful 'Euro symbol' signs and subsequent bonfire?

[Tom Sutton]

I read with great interest,relief and not best hidden howls of delight, Jim's article "Sign Language" (FRM Journal - May).  Really glad to see the demise of fridge freezer man and the adoption of ISO 7010. 

Despite the adoption of the ISO 7010 as an EN and the annex to EC Directive 92/58 being withdrawn this year. (hopefully) We will still have to wait for the The Health and Safety (Safety Signs and Signals) Regulations 1996 to be amended before we see the demise of fridge freezer man and the legislation may not require an immediate change?

[Jim Creak]

I will say this yet again as most contributors to this forum probably weren't born when I said it the first time....The Health and Safety(Safety Signs and Signals) Regulations is not prescriptive, if it were then every sign in the UK (with the exception of Barking Station) does not satisfy the legislation. Which has been my point since 1986 when I first saw EC Directive 82/58.....There are 5 different Graphical symbols for escape plus the 4 arrows meaning "this way". Intelect  immediately discounted this in practice but our legislators left it in the legislation. So if the legislation were prescriptive you would have the situation that a suplementary arrow is pointing in one direction and the arrow within the graphical symbol is pointing in another direction. This is because although there are 5 different graphical symbols there is not one that points egress to the right. Intelect has already told us that this is stupid with the exception of Barking Station but at least here they have used arrows pointing in the same direction.

It seems so clear to me that correct guidance is BS 5499 Part 4. But hey after 25 years who am I to keep banging on about it.

[Davo]

er.........

oh yes they are Mr Creak!

If I don't have a battery backup in my alarm I can get prosecuted.


davo

[Tom Sutton]

I agree with all you say but EN 7010 will make no difference to the present situation unless EC Directive 82/58 is amended and consequently The Health and Safety(Safety Signs and Signals) Regulations. Unless of course you wish to continue for the next 25 years campaigning for BS 5499 Part 4 to be adopted as the definitive national standard regarding fire escape signs.

It will also be up to the legislators to do a better job the next time around.

[Jim Creak]

Davo, You only need a guaranteed power supply, it does not prescribe a battery. A battery may well be a very good provision but as far as the legislation is concerned you need neither if your risk assessment does not require you to have an alarm and the responsible person can satisfactorily raise the alarm another way. I am sure like me you would say this is not an option but the legislation gives the responsible person exactly that option.

Which is my point..the provision of any system is risk appropriate and it is for the competent person to provide suitable and sufficient arrangements to meet the objectives of the fire safety strategy. If the competent person provide fire safety signs that are not understood, have no provenance and can be misleading it has to be a matter of professional liability. The annex illustrations in an EC Directive, like the guaranteed power supply are to be interpreted by a competent person into satisfactory robust provision. This is where code and standards sit and should stand professional scritiny and test.