Discussion - Hypothetical Question - Basic Fire Awareness Training

[deaconj999]

Fellow posters,

Hypothetical Question :

As a part time employee I am told I required to do fire training. My company has 2 persons 'in the know' and I hear them arguing all day about health and safety and then fire regulations and it seems that they are confusing things mentioning different regulations. I heard someone the other day also mention that all the full time staff needed fire training every year but they didn't mention anything about part time staff. I am concerned now because I thought I also needed training by law!!!!! But the company finance director (closely related to god I believe) comes in the office and tells the 2 'experts' that part time employees do not need fire training because the permanent staff are trained instead and would be in the building when the fire happened and able to take control of the situation. If that's the case why do I keep getting an email from my manager telling me that I need to do the training. It seems that either the fire regs are not clear or the health and safety regs and acts also are not that clear. What do I do ?. The other thing I should mention is that our company shares this building with another who actually owns the building and I'm sure I heard a rumour that their boss has told ours that he is to get it sorted out as they kind of share the responsibility for this, amongst other things.

So, here we go, considering MHWSR Regs 1999 still referring to FP(WP) Regs 1999 (re: RRFSO 2005) - H&SW Act 1974 - (suitable and sufficient) - (cost prohibitive) (risk assessment) (duties of employers/employees).

Q to forum : Taking all this into account we all know the requirements, but again I feel definitions of reasonable, employee(part time), etc etc.

Discussions please in terms of de jure v. de facto interpretation as is common with regard to costs/risk.

Thanks

[nearlythere]

It depends what you mean by training.
Every employee, be they full or part time, must by law be provided with any relevant information which is necessary for them to know to ensure their safety and the safety of others from fire. This is information such as the building's specific evecuation strategy, dangerous substances, informaton about specific matters e.g. door locking devices and how they are operated, courses of action they should or should not do in an emergency, etc etc.

I assume you are talking about traning in the sense of use of extinguishers? It is normal, because of the size of the workforce and cost, for only some employees to receive this type of training. A valid arguement is that at all times there will be people in all areas of the building who have extinguisher training and have been specifcally trained to deal with an outbreak of fire - everyone else to evacuate.
The matter of ensuring that a trained first aid fire fighter is always present in a particular area is a management issue.

[Chariot]

The Part-Time Workers (Prevention of Less Favourable Treatment) Regulations 2000 may be applicable here

[nearlythere]

I wouldn't have thought Chariot that failing to train a part time worker in the use of fire extinguishers would disadvantage them unless there was some form of remuneration or other benefit by being so trained.

[Chariot]

It may be considered that they are being treated "less favourably" because they are excluded from being trained due to the fact that they are part time.

[Midland Retty]

All members of staff should receive basic fire safety training - the action to be taken in the event of fire, where to evacuate etc

More advanced training - such as training in the use of fire extinguishers, or fire warden duties - is a different matter.

[Chariot]

agreed but training should not be denied just on the grounds that an employee is part time.

[nearlythere]

But training could be denied on the grounds of relevance. Training is necessary for objective purposes not to tick an Equality box.

[deaconj999]

All,

Thanks so far, I'm concentrating on Basic FA Trg as per the title. In other words; what actions to take, which may include tackling the fire if the individual feels it is safe to do so, assembly points, raising the alarm either verbally or if FA fitted by nearest MCP. Not Fire warden training or any other specific actions like shutting down equipment etc.

[tmprojects]

I get the impression their may be some confusion as to what your colleagues mean and/or your understanding of the meaning of fire training (no offence).

it appears to me their is 2 maybe 3 different types of fire training being discussed/confused in your post. They are;

Safety Training (Fire awarness training)

21.—(1) The responsible person must ensure that his employees are provided with adequate safety training—

(a)at the time when they are first employed; and
(b)on their being exposed to new or increased risks because of—

Fire marshall/warden training

15.—(1) The responsible person must—

(a)establish and, where necessary, give effect to appropriate procedures, including safety drills, to be followed in the event of serious and imminent danger to relevant persons;
(b)nominate a sufficient number of competent persons to implement those procedures in so far as they relate to the evacuation of relevant persons from the premises;

and maybe even

First aid firefighting duties

(3) The responsible person must, where necessary—

(a)take measures for fire-fighting in the premises, adapted to the nature of the activities carried on there and the size of the undertaking and of the premises concerned;
(b)nominate competent persons to implement those measures and ensure that the number of such persons, their training and the equipment available to them are adequate, taking into account the size of, and the specific hazards involved in, the premises concerned;

I think what they are saying is your full time colleagues are receiving annual training for the latter 2, and they don't need you to receive the training because you have not been allocated duties under article 15 nor required to perform first-aid firefighting duties, article 13. As was said in your first post 'permanent staff are trained, they take control of the situation'. this is perfectly acceptable, as long as they are not expecting you to fullfill those roles in their abscence, in which case you would require the same level of training as them.

However; general fire awareness, to satisfy article 21, must be given to all staff. This FA training need only be given once on induction(except when (b) applies). The refreshment and practice of that knowledge will be ensured by taking part in the twice yearly evacuation drills.

just to be clear. an employee being full time or temporary has no relevance in this order. it is their workplace, duties and responsibilities that dictate the level of training they require.
In short! you may only need FA training
I hope this helps!

[deaconj999]

No Offence taken I understand the requirements but really am checking how I may influence the following:

the problem is that the Policy is flawed and requires All staff to recieve 'annual fire training'. There is no distinction between the 3 areas and there is little information given to the Employers. In this 'hypothetical' scenario the Employers follow guidance on what to deliver from an authority, but the authority expects the Employer to understand the requirements.

Staff get training on induction as well and this is repeated annually which includes evacuation to an assembly point, raising the alarm, dialling the emergency services, fire triangle, selection of extinguishers and meeting the fire service giving them information after a head count. Mostly this is computer based training with a test and certificate. Sometimes if there are spare extinguishers, hands on training via LPG sim [CO2] / paper in bin [WSP] is given. No one is actually nominated as a fire warden in particular and everyone is expected to "fight the fire if trained and as long as you think it's safe to do so. The trouble is, I don't think any of the part time staff have done the training and their manager tells them to concentrate on the normal jobs, 'they haven't got time to do this fire stuff as well'. They are still employees so they are not precluded in my eyes (that's simple enough to argue).

Thanks for your input.............the challenge to change the policy continues.....

[Chariot]

But training could be denied on the grounds of relevance. Training is necessary for objective purposes not to tick an Equality box.

I am struggling to see what fire safety training would not be relevant to part time employees

[nearlythere]

But training could be denied on the grounds of relevance. Training is necessary for objective purposes not to tick an Equality box.

I am struggling to see what fire safety training would not be relevant to part time employees

The use of extinguishers as they are not trained to use them.
Their course of action in the event of a fire is only to evacuate to the assembly point - the fire wardens in the relevant areas will deal with any fire as they are trained to do.
It might help the rest of us understand the issue more Chariot if you could draw a distinction between fire safety training and fire safety information. They are two different things but can be connected.

[Chariot]

Am I correct in my understanding that you believe it is not relevant to train part time staff in the use of fire extinguishers simply due to the fact that they are part time employees?

I hope this does not extend to part time fire fighters!!!

[nearlythere]

Chariot
It is not necessary to train everybody in the use of extinguishers. Your employer has decided that he has trained a sufficient number of full time employees maybe because they are there more often than part timers.

Part time firefighters or even full time firefighters do not have to undertake training in areas where it is not necessary.
E.G. aeriel appliance operators have to undertake periodic training in the use of these specialist appliances. Not all firefighters have to do it, regardless of their employment status, because the F&R Services see no reason and it doesn't make sense, to train everybody because not everybody has to know. Only those chosen few, part time and full time.

Where do you see part time workers being disadvantaged because they do not receive training gin the use of extinguishers? Is there an advantage in receiving such training?