PAS 79 available for public comment

[colin todd]

So let me see if I have this right, Eli, its not just me that has got it all wrong, its the IFE as well, a non commercial body with no axe to grind, and that forsaw the emergence of inadequately qualified fire risk assessors before there was even a Fire Safety Order and so put measures in place to protect the public, rather than line the pockets of shareholders or others.

You are well aware of the IFE process and your description of it is, as you well know, a complete travesty of the truth.  One has to ask what angle you are coming from and why you are so vehemently jaundiced, but as we do not know who you are or who you work for (DO WE?), it is difficult to understand.

[Eli]

Sorry Colin I’ve been away on holiday so I couldn’t respond to your strange comments sooner. However I thought I saw you in a pasta and seafood restaurant in the Barbican at Plymouth. It turned out to be a ‘lookalikey’ with a south west accent. If it had been you I would have told you this; the advice given in the PAS and the IFE document is slightly better than that given by the DCLG; which as we all know is, ‘look in the yellow pages’.   

If you intend to appoint a fire risk assessor what steps should you go through to ensure they will provide you with what you are paying for? What things should you look for and what should you not take at face value? What qualifications are suitable and what experience should they have? Most importantly how this should be checked and recorded by the RP. How do you spot the Cowboy? Does the IFE and PAS document go in to this detail? No! In my personal opinion they don’t.

 I realise that in your world anyone who has a different opinion than yours is wrong; and they must have a devious and commercial reason for ever disagreeing with the word of Todd, but that is part of what makes you, you. It’s much easier for you to ignore questions and just deflect from the forum debate by trying to suggest there is some other overreaching motive for me criticising what is already in existence.

I believe this forum is for the purpose of expressing personal opinion and I think the moderators need to get a grip of your comments which are divisive and offensive.

Kurnal hasn’t Mr Todd been yellow carded already?

If an RP goes through a methodical system and checks qualifications experience and references the cowboys should be weeded out. The problem is the RP doesn’t check or more importantly doesn’t know what to check. They need better and more structured advice to follow. This in my opinion will come in the RP guidance document, which will accompany the fire risk assessor competence standard.

[colin todd]

 I was worried that you would not respond Eli or whoever you are and that the constant publicity for PAS 79 would go down the stack, but I should have known you would not let me down and that you were just on your hols, so thanks for the further publicity.

The DCLG guide does not say look in the yellow pages.  Its a bit like your reference to PAS 79 not saying anything about your favourite CB and about it making an alleged constant reference to BAFE.  It is all based on your jaundiced misconception, but sadly is misinformation that you spread.

Remind me how many fire risk assessments you have actually carried out by the way.

[Eli]

 I was worried that you would not respond Eli or whoever you are and that the constant publicity for PAS 79 would go down the stack, but I should have known you would not let me down and that you were just on your hols, so thanks for the further publicity
There is no such thing as bad publicity; as the say

The DCLG guide does not say look in the yellow pages
This is off the communities’ web site “You may feel more comfortable employing a fire safety specialist to help you. Companies providing fire safety services are listed in local directories. Alternatively you may be able to ask your insurer for a recommendation” not exactly top advice. Look in the yellow pages! (Please note other local directories are available)

Its a bit like your reference to PAS 79 not saying anything about your favourite CB and about it making an alleged constant reference to BAFE
Post amended to ‘special mention’. In the foreword (not part of the PAS folks!) I think you will find that quite a few people noticed this too and have commented on this aspect of PAS 79 either through the public consultation method or via a direct letter to BSI. But like the letters of complaint last time I am sure they will be ignored.

It is all based on your jaundiced misconception, but sadly is misinformation that you spread
By ‘jaundiced’ you mean different to your opinion and one that obviously no one else shares. National register anyone? Our survey says yes 2 to 1 in favor; but Colin ...he say NO
  

Remind me how many fire risk assessments you have actually carried out by the way

Thwack! Nail on the head.

None, nada, zero, zilch, but if the RP followed the PAS and IFE advice I would get work as a fire risk assessor tomorrow no difficult questions asked! On paper I have IFE approved training, IFSM approved training, 4 years in fire safety, CPD hours by the bucket full. I am even an advanced fire door installer and have a certificate to prove it.

However if the RP completed a proper due diligence on me, with a step by step approach (as suggested in the RP guidance document draft) I wouldn’t get appointed by anyone. Thus a cowboy would be out of work. It really is that simple, apart from some of the cowboys are actually in trade associations, so that would never do.

Things have moved on since 2006 and the advice you wrote then needs updating to reflect the difficulties we now know an RP faces when appointing a competent person. To help the RP get it right a more structured and graphic approach is needed.  

[facades]

It really is all getting a bit tedious. Someone knock it on the head for all our sakes !!!! 

[Eli]

It really is all getting a bit tedious. Someone knock it on the head for all our sakes !!!! 

Thanks Facades I agree, consider it 'Knocked' from me.

[colin todd]

And on a final note, I was interested to note the following statement in the IFPO magazine, Fire Safety Professional, by the IFPO Technical Chairman, Ian
 Shakespeare:

"Suggestions have been made about the IFPO joining forces with the scheme currently run by Warrington, but I can categorically deny this will take place. The IFPO is proud to be independent and will hopefully continue to be independent in the future."

Of PAS 79 Ian says "Members who use this document would be well advised to purchase their own newly revised copies"

I have always liked Ian.

THE END

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[wee brian]

I never really understood his plays

[colin todd]

He once described the cloned comments on PAS 79 (all using more or less the same wording, without even troubling to change the wording, so only equivalent to a single comment alas) in the following manner, Brian:

"Tis a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing"   Macbeth Act 5 Scene 5

But then there is a serious academic theory that the bard could not actually write for himself, but merely plagarised the ideas of others.  Though I have never subscribed to the theory, if its true, a couple of people who have commented on PAS 79 come from the same school!

[Tom W]

Colin perhaps if Eli is not happy with the way each of the schemes are listed you should do it in order of size?

IFE I know have 127 and are surely one of the largest? Im not going to sit there and count the rest. Warringtons was easy though they have 12.

Maybe ranking them by popularity would be a better way?

[Eli]

I think your right Colin didn’t Jayne Jacobs write some of his farces?

“There is a quality even meaner than outright ugliness or disorder, and this meaner quality is the dishonest mask of pretended order, achieved by ignoring or suppressing the real order that is struggling to exist and to be served”

One comment; I can’t say I am surprised. 

[colin todd]

You should have stuck to teaching, Eli cos you are clearly better at literature than review of publicly available specifications.

[CivvyFSO]

Pack it in you two or there will be no CBeebies after tea!

[Eli]

Pack it in you two or there will be no CBeebies after tea!

No Problem Civvy the ‘Laird of Fire Safety’ (self appointed) told us on Friday at the FIA CPD day how BSI publications work.

For those that didn’t attend it’s very simple; a book is a book and the author has carte blanche on editing and content.

A British standard goes through a proper consultation process after the working group has produced the document, with every comment referenced and the reasons why they have been accepted or refused noted and made available. 

A PAS goes through the same process as a standard but the author has the final say.

Now I know how it works I can let it go, does that mean I get a choice of what we watch after tea? I like Balamory; the best thing to come out of Scotland; ever!

[colin todd]

The best thing to come out of scotland is an old saying, namely "there is nane sae deef as those that dinnae want to hear".  As you were not listening right, Eli, it is BSI that have the final say as to what goes in.