Combined burglar and fire alarm

[Tom Sutton]

http://www.prosecurityzone.com/News/Alarms/Intruder_alarms/Combined_burglar_and_fire_alarm_launched_at_isc_east_11511.asp#axzz1UT7NOup4

Is this idea acceptable in the UK, like adding smoke/heat detectors to a domestic security system? It seems a recipe for disaster for example,
1. Should fire rated cable be used?
2. What criteria does the security system need to comply with?
3. Labelling?
4. Sounders – would it need separate sounders from the security alarm if they are the same sounders do they need to make a different noise?

[colin todd]

Thomas, the idea is far from new andas you say it has been accepted for domestic for years.  The first job I had to do when I joined the dearly departed FOC in 1976 was to advise on a combined security and fire alarm system, so the idea is far from new!!!!!!   What disaster is likely to ensue???

[Tom Sutton]

Colin I accept that I over stated the case but I could not understand how the two British Standards can be used on the same system. For instance how two sounders can give distinctly differing alarms?

[Wiz]

Thomas, the link you provided was for a product that appears to be designed for the USA market. It is possible that there are a whole range of issues regarding its ability to comply with any British Standard.

[kurnal]

I believe that many domestic security alarms have provision for the connection of smoke or heat detectors. This has been discussed before Thomas, if you cant find the threads let me know and I will try a search.

[Tom Sutton]

Kurnal I found threads that refers to intruder alarms but they didn't include connection of detectors to intruder alarms.

In "BS 5839 part 6" I found this,

Grade C systems can incorporate even simpler control and indicating equipment, providing a source of power for either a number of smoke alarms (and, possibly, heat alarms) or a number of fire detectors, with a very basic form of control and indication. Such equipment can comprise, for example, equipment specifically intended to provide a central source of power and control for interconnected smoke alarms, or can, for example, comprise the control and indicating equipment of an intruder alarm system or social alarm system, to which a number of fire detectors and fire alarm devices are connected.

This seems to accept the practise of connecting fire detectors to intruder alarms but doesn't address the problems I indicated above (sounders).

[colin todd]

Thoamas, Thomas Thomas, after you retired from the fire brigade (in the days when it was populated by people who had some incling of what they were doing), we sent a man to the moon.  So I think we can deal with different sounds from a single controller.  For example, you could have a different output to a different device, or you could use a three wire configuration on an electronic sounder, which is old hat to allow two stage alarms.

The combination of different systems was actually recognised in the 1988 cersion of BS 5839-1.

I invented the Grade C system in 1994, when you and I were both young (where did those years go?). Its pretty cool isnt it.

[Tom Sutton]

Colin, Col, Coolin the extent of my knowledge of fire alarms, was asking for documentary proof it complied with the appropriate BS. I am trying to get to grips with BS 5839 and my technical knowledge is very limited this is why I need to ask these questions.

I am now certain you are that gentleman of distinction that hassled us in the seventies your pen hasn't slowed down much and equally as vicious however now with a touch of humour I think.   

[colin todd]

Thomas,  To get to grips with BS 5839-1, you really need my excellent text book on the subject, which, for old age pensioners, I can obtain for you at half price if you want.  Alternatively, you could come on one of my equally excellent courses on BS 5839-1.

If, in the twilight of your life, your pension does not even  extent to bargains such as the above, I stand ready to let you have the benefit of my advice, day or night, to assist in the quenching of your inexorable thirst for knowledge, albeit in those heady days of the 70s to which you refer, the fire brigades all told me I was wasting my time doing a degree in fire safety engineering as the only people who would ever know anything about fire safety were firemen. Some things never change eh, but, hey, it was tradition that made this country what it is today.

[Wiz]

Colin, Col, Coolin the extent of my knowledge of fire alarms, was asking for documentary proof it complied with the appropriate BS. I am trying to get to grips with BS 5839 and my technical knowledge is very limited this is why I need to ask these questions.

I am now certain you are that gentleman of distinction that hassled us in the seventies your pen hasn't slowed down much and equally as vicious however now with a touch of humour I think.   

Tom , the product you linked to is American. It was hardly likely to meet BS standards anyway.

There are intruder alarm products available in the UK today which offer smoke detectors as an accessory. Just because they offer it doesn't mean to say that it automatically complies with all British Standards for alarm equipment and systems.

I've been working with fire alarm systems for 30 years and have been presented with a few systems in that time that were supposed to be combined fire and intruder alarm systems, but was never convinced that any of them complied with the BS that the salesman quoted i.e BS5839-1.

If Mr C.T.'s courses and books don't grab your fancy, you can still ask your specific questions of BS5839 on this forum and I'm sure you will get some useful answers.

[Tom Sutton]

albeit in those heady days of the 70s to which you refer, the fire brigades all told me I was wasting my time doing a degree in fire safety engineering as the only people who would ever know anything about fire safety were firemen.

Colin in those heady days I recall the opposite it was you that was telling the fire service they were incompetent in administering the FPA and it should leave it to the "educated" people and not persons with only the pathetic training they had received. Had you enrolled on Prof Rasbash's course by then?

Thanks Wiz I did realise it was American but was wondering if something similar was available in the UK and I do have god,s publication but have no intention of attending one of his courses. If I do have any specific technical questions on fire alarms I will be using the expertise of this forum.

In domestic premises it appears if you are considering grade C system it accepts using intruder alarms and I could not see how other clauses in part 6, could be implemented therefore I was wondering is there is  CIE panels that take this into consideration. I also understand how part 1 would never comply but there may be a case for part 6 systems with the right CIE panel.

[colin todd]

TAM,  I think it was the fire service that invaded Poland first.  The problem is that, once they did, bombing the enemy becomes compulsive, particularly as its like shooting fish in a barrel.  But glad to see I got a royalty from you in respect of my book.

[Tom Sutton]

True Colin but all the rhetoric was to ensure the Fire Brigade became the enforcing authority for the FPA and not the Local Authority who had made a cock up of the fire sections of the OSRA. Unfortunately some of us believed the propaganda far to long but by the eighties most of us realised we were urinating against the wind and there was no case. However some developed, chips on the proverbial which by the sound of it exists today.

[colin todd]

Tam, if you wish to compare fire-fighters with a few months experience in fire safety who are then turned loose on an unsuspecting world to enforce legislation in fire engineered buildings, or enforce fre precautions in blokcs of flats, which other than beoing brought up in one and attending the odd ifre they have never looked at before, yep they certainly look good compared to the rat catchers who enforced OSRA.  It really just depends what your benchmark is, doesn't it?

[Tom Sutton]

Colin more half truths, in my brigade no FPO with few months experience in fire safety was turned loose on an unsuspecting world it was more like 12 months plus and had completed at least 9 weeks training and had been accompanied an experienced FPO. There was very few fire engineered buildings, if any and blocks of flats were not part of our remit. We are talking about prescription fire safety which as you know is far simpler than fire risk assessment and we allowed the brain boxes like you to provide the guides we just followed them with a very small amount of flexibility. I also firmly believe the fire service was the best department to  take on the FPA if you think the rat catcher was better proposition I must beg to differ.