Burning issues top 5

[Northern Uproar]

Out of interest, was it because they are cheaper than there more experienced counter parts or ...............?

Exactly. This was the only reason.

When I was a civvy FSO, I think I was on about 8K less than my uniformed counterparts who had the same role (and it was one of the better paid posts, some of the ads I saw nationally were for 4k less than I was, so I presume they were targeting retirees), plus I didn't have the 9 day fortnight, had to work longer per day and was on the non-uniformed pension. Whether its also relevant, but I was not part of the FBU.

The problem with employing a non-uniformed types as I found out is that there were no promotion/job development routes so once you were at the top of the payscale that was it, so I left after 3 years.

[nearlythere]

Remember it is Building Control who ensure that Part B is met, and Building Control does not consist of firefighters.

Don't we know only too well at times.
I am having a big issue with a BC certified building at the minute. Is it only ex firefighters who look above suspended ceilings? Tell me it isn't.

[CivvyFSO]

Out of interest, was it because they are cheaper than there more experienced counter parts or ...............?

More experienced counter parts? Where is this 'experience' from? Surely it is from training directly related to fire safety, which anyone could be trained in?

[Tom W]

Civvy, I'm sure you would have to agree that if you tested one FF on general fire safety and an accountant for example the FF would almost always win.

So they have a better background.

[Midland Retty]

But neither have they laid on their belly staring the big red monster in the face as it rolls over the ceiling above them etc etc etc.  

And neither have most firefighters (except during Flashover training)

The fact is the dynamic of the UK Fire Service is changing. We just dont have that many big fires anymore, and the skill base operationally is being lost. Apart from some of the older hands you could ask 20 fresh faced firefighters who have done 5 years if they have ever experienced flashover conditions. I guarantee most of them won't have done. You just don't get as many fires now, and when you do unless its persons reported you fight the fire defensively.

Fire safety is nothing to do with staring at the big red monster, and actually (which I can vouch for being operational) doesn't really teach a great deal about fire behaviour either, not to the extent that you could class yourself as being any kind of expert in it.

The fact is with "non operational" inspectors (note that some some "civvy" FSOs are uniformed by the way) we should have more stability, more continuity in fire safety depts rather than firefighters coming in from ops doing a two year stint for the sake of promotion, or whatever, then moving on.

[Midland Retty]

Civvy, I'm sure you would have to agree that if you tested one FF on general fire safety and an accountant for example the FF would almost always win.

So they have a better background.

That is a silly comparison to make.

A better one would be to compare the knowledge of a University Fire Officer or Hospital Fire Officer  (many of whom have never worked for the fire brigade) against the firefighter. The Uni / Hosp Fire Officer would always win.

I will say this until I'm blue in the face...fire safety and firefighting are two very different things, they may be related, but the fact you have been a firefighter does not make you a competent fire safety inspector.

[nearlythere]

But neither have they laid on their belly staring the big red monster in the face as it rolls over the ceiling above them etc etc etc.  

The fact is with "non operational" inspectors (note that some some "civvy" FSOs are uniformed by the way) we should have more stability, more continuity in fire safety depts rather than firefighters coming in from ops doing a two year stint for the sake of promotion, or whatever, then moving on.

That was a very significent issue but on the up side the tubes also moved on in a couple of years.
The lack of staff continuity was very frustrating for outside bodies (architects and designers) who had to consult the FBs with new proposals and was the subject of many complaints. By the time a project was completed a multitude of different IO's fingerprints were all over it.
The arguement for having a "roll in roll out"  policy was that it was gave operational officers a better understanding of how buildings were designed particularily the fire safety measures incorporated in the design and how they could be used to operational advantage.
I suppose it is a valid arguement to provide this type of training but not as part of a FS dept.
This arguement could go on for ever and I can tell you I have seen many crap assessments from both "competent" and "qualified" persons, one in particular from someone who would have you think he can do no wrong and everyone else can do no right. But that is logged away for use another day, if necessary.

[CivvyFSO]

Civvy, I'm sure you would have to agree that if you tested one FF on general fire safety and an accountant for example the FF would almost always win.

Here is a list of questions then:

Can you explain the british standard routine test regarding fire alarms?
Can you explain the british standard routine test regarding emergency lighting?
Can you give me the details of what is covered in induction and refresher fire safety training?
Can you explain normal procedures of what to do if there is a fire?
Do you know who is responsible for fire safety in any building?
Can you explain the normal risk assessment process?

Now go ask these questions to any store manager, then go ask them to a firefighter. I bet you would get better answers from the average store manager.

[SamFIRT]

But neither have they laid on their belly staring the big red monster in the face as it rolls over the ceiling above them etc etc etc.  

And neither have most firefighters (except during Flashover training)

My bold and underline

Where is your evidence to support this statement Midland?  

I believe this is a common urban myth currently being spread by people with an interest in cuts. Or lantern swinging by those with rose tinted spectacles (it is not what it was in my day etc etc). Yes the IRS stats will tell you there have been fewer incidents nationally. However, these have to be balanced against reduced levels of fire cover. I attend many serious fires and they almost all have been successfully fought by firefighters; many offensively (as opposed to defensively and not as in trolling or flaming as in a blog).     So someone somewhere must be getting experience of fire fighting.  

Now whether that experience is an essential prerequisite for being an FSO is another argument.

And I actually don’t think it is...... and so in some (large) way I agree with you and Civvy.  

However, I feel that to remove the fire service experiential learning from the symbiotic mix and to rely totally on academic learning is to degrade the end product. I personally believe those who argue for the removal of Fire Service experience from the field are either arguing from a fiscal perspective ( as non-uniformed are cheaper than uniformed staff) or they are perspective biased towards academia.

I have seen very many situations where a fire or ventilation engineer will tell you that a fire (or smoke) will not do something... then it goes and does it anyway.

And engineering is reliant on the quality of installation, future installation and maintenance; not just the design.

[Midland Retty]

I will agree that lesser resources will mean that those who will remain should almost by default get more experience as they will, in theory, be called to more and more incidents.

But Sam you know yourself how many situations during your career you have have faced flashover conditions. Ive just asked three of my colleagues all been in the job over ten years, all part of a metropolitan brigade, how many times theyve experienced flashover conditions, they can count such occassions on one hand.

Compare that to some of the newer hands in your brigade, many of whom probably haven't been to a good working job yet, let alone experience flashover conditions in real life despite being in the job a few years. It is not a case of "didn't happen in my day". But anyway this is a discussion for the operational thread... we digress.

I just get tired of so called firefighters who wax lyrical with silly statements like "Unless you have rescued tens of people from a towering inferno, had three fire balls raging at you, dealt with two backdrafts, and lived through five flashovers you know nothing about fire" (ok Im exagerating but you know the type of people I mean )

[Tom W]

Civvy, I'm sure you would have to agree that if you tested one FF on general fire safety and an accountant for example the FF would almost always win.

So they have a better background.

That is a silly comparison to make.

A better one would be to compare the knowledge of a University Fire Officer or Hospital Fire Officer  (many of whom have never worked for the fire brigade) against the firefighter. The Uni / Hosp Fire Officer would always win.

I will say this until I'm blue in the face...fire safety and firefighting are two very different things, they may be related, but the fact you have been a firefighter does not make you a competent fire safety inspector.

Now that is a silly comparison not mine! You want me to compare someone who is already doing a job in fire safety to a fire fighter?! Of course the FO would win. I would hope they as they are employed in that role that they have relevant qualifications and experience. My comparison was not at all silly, in fact I picked an accountant who on average all accountants you would think would have a higher IQ than say a road sweeper. But a civvy is a civvy.

If you are in F1 and want to employ a new driver would you expect the person who has never driven and never even been in a car to be better than someone with a license and driven for years?!

[Tom W]

Civvy, I'm sure you would have to agree that if you tested one FF on general fire safety and an accountant for example the FF would almost always win.

Here is a list of questions then:

Can you explain the british standard routine test regarding fire alarms?
Can you explain the british standard routine test regarding emergency lighting?
Can you give me the details of what is covered in induction and refresher fire safety training?
Can you explain normal procedures of what to do if there is a fire?
Do you know who is responsible for fire safety in any building?
Can you explain the normal risk assessment process?

Now go ask these questions to any store manager, then go ask them to a firefighter. I bet you would get better answers from the average store manager.

Im guessing at your username is civvy you are a civvyfso, can I ask what you did for a living before your current role?

[nearlythere]

I will agree that lesser resources will mean that those who will remain should almost by default get more experience as they will, in theory, be called to more and more incidents.

But Sam you know yourself how many situations during your career you have have faced flashover conditions. Ive just asked three of my colleagues all been in the job over ten years, all part of a metropolitan brigade, how many times theyve experienced flashover conditions, they can count such occassions on one hand.

Compare that to some of the newer hands in your brigade, many of whom probably haven't been to a good working job yet, let alone experience flashover conditions in real life despite being in the job a few years. It is not a case of "didn't happen in my day". But anyway this is a discussion for the operational thread... we digress.

I just get tired of so called firefighters who wax lyrical with silly statements like "Unless you have rescued tens of people from a towering inferno, had three fire balls raging at you, dealt with two backdrafts, and lived through five flashovers you know nothing about fire" (ok Im exagerating but you know the type of people I mean )

What about getting your toes crushed by the wheeled escape?

[nearlythere]

Civvy, I'm sure you would have to agree that if you tested one FF on general fire safety and an accountant for example the FF would almost always win.

Here is a list of questions then:

Can you explain the british standard routine test regarding fire alarms?
Can you explain the british standard routine test regarding emergency lighting?
Can you give me the details of what is covered in induction and refresher fire safety training?
Can you explain normal procedures of what to do if there is a fire?
Do you know who is responsible for fire safety in any building?
Can you explain the normal risk assessment process?

Now go ask these questions to any store manager, then go ask them to a firefighter. I bet you would get better answers from the average store manager.

Im guessing at your username is civvy you are a civvyfso, can I ask what you did for a living before your current role?

Guys, guys. There's a lot of love escaping out the window here.
Piglet, I'm going to insert a flower in the end of your branch.
Civvy, I'm going to insert a flower in the end of your, er your What do you have that I can insert a flower into the end of?

[nearlythere]

What we need is a Friday joke today.

Irish golfer

A golfer playing in Ireland hooked his drive into the woods. Looking for his ball,

he found a little leprechaun flat on his back,  a big bump on his head and the golfer's ball  beside him.

Horrified, the golfer got his water bottle from the cart and poured it over the little guy, reviving him.

'Arrgh! What happened?' the leprechaun asked.

'I'm afraid I hit you with my golf ball,' the golfer says.

'Oh, I see. Well, ye got me fair and square. Ye get three wishes, so whaddya want?'

'Thank God, you're all right!' the golfer answers in relief. 'I don't want anything, I'm just glad you're OK, and I apologize.'

And the golfer walks off.

'What a nice guy,' the leprechaun says to himself.

'I have to do something for him. I'll give him the three things I would want... a great golf game,  all the money he ever needs, and a fantastic sex life.'

A year goes by and the golfer is back.

On the same hole, he again hits a bad drive into the woods and the leprechaun is there waiting for him.

'Twas me that made ye hit the ball here,' the little guy says. 'I just want to ask ye, how's yer golf game?'

'My game is fantastic!' the golfer answers.  'I'm an internationally famous golfer now.'

He adds, 'By the way, it's good to see you're all right.'

'Oh, I'm fine now, thank ye. I did that fer yer golf game, you know. And tell me, how's yer money  situation?'

'Why, it's just wonderful!' the golfer states.  'When I need cash, I just reach in my pocket  and pull out $100 bills I didn't even know were there!'

'I did that fer ye also. And tell me, how's yer sex life?'

The golfer blushes, turns his head away in embarrassment, and says shyly, 'It's OK.'

C'mon, c'mon now,' urged the leprechaun,  'I'm wanting to know if I did a good job.  How many times a week?'

Blushing even more, the golfer looks around then whispers,  'Once, sometimes twice a week.'

'What??' responds the leprechaun in shock.  'That's all? Only once or twice a week?'

'Well,' says the golfer, 'I figure that's not bad for a Catholic priest in a small parish.'