BS 5839 part 6 system (Grade D) In a small office building.

[nearlythere]

Right. How about another spanner in the works.

Fire risk assessment is all about taking reasonably practicable measures to  reduce the level of risk in existing buildings. The smoke alarm achieves this perfectly in the example of the petrol station shop.

But if I was designing a new petrol station shop  with an inner room and submitting the design for Building Regulations approval is it reasonable then to incorporate a domestic type smoke alarm? Or do we think the BCO should reject the design? 

From what I can make out at the moment Kurnal  Building Control consider a means of giving warning in the event of a fire as a full fire alarm system to BS5839 regardless of the size, layout or use of the building. I have also seen a single prefab unit with a full electrical system with manual and auto operating points.
I was at a 12 year old stable block yesterday after one of Yorkshire's best fire extinguisher suppliers was trying to fleece one of my countrymenpersons out of £500 for two extinguishers. This was a straighforward, simple, everywhere in view from anywhere situation and BC made her install a full system.
So I really think that the domestic detector in inner room condition in new build may not arise.

[Tom Sutton]

Do you think Joe public thinks a fire alarm is a full AFD system and maybe some fire risk assessors? At one time AFD was a rarity except in sleeping risks.

[nearlythere]

Do you think Joe public thinks a fire alarm is a full AFD system and maybe some fire risk assessors? At one time AFD was a rarity except in sleeping risks.

Absolutely. And many building owners also.

[kurnal]

And many electicians who install fire alarms. Like the one who told me that " the Law says any workplace with more than 5 staff must have at least an L3 system. No choice. Its what the Law says."

[Northern Uproar]

Right. How about another spanner in the works.

Fire risk assessment is all about taking reasonably practicable measures to  reduce the level of risk in existing buildings. The smoke alarm achieves this perfectly in the example of the petrol station shop.

But if I was designing a new petrol station shop  with an inner room and submitting the design for Building Regulations approval is it reasonable then to incorporate a domestic type smoke alarm? Or do we think the BCO should reject the design? 

The diffenence is surely that the fire risk assessment is carried out under the Fire Safety Order and the BCO is concerned with the Building Regs and his benchmark standard would be ADB - Building's Other Than Dwellings, so would be under no obligation to accept a smoke detector for a dwelling.

While you can argue that satisfactory means of escape in a building should be the same in a new build as an existing building, but doesn't 'reasonable practicable' change: Just had a quick look, and new petrol stations cost between £500k and £1.2M, it could be argued that the cost in terms of 'trouble time and money' of a fire alarm to cover this risk may be less interms of the cost of the new build, but could be more in terms of whatever business is occupying an old building that never had an Fire Alarm (say it's an independant seller, their only premises) - therefore not reasonably practicable to control the risk by installing a full alarm and AFD to cover the inner room in an existing building, but a domestic detector is?

As one of my old bosses used to say: is a FRA not comparable to a car's MOT? The MOT standard is one that you shouldn't let your car fall below, but you'd never build a new one to MOT standards?

[nearlythere]

Right. How about another spanner in the works.

Fire risk assessment is all about taking reasonably practicable measures to  reduce the level of risk in existing buildings. The smoke alarm achieves this perfectly in the example of the petrol station shop.

But if I was designing a new petrol station shop  with an inner room and submitting the design for Building Regulations approval is it reasonable then to incorporate a domestic type smoke alarm? Or do we think the BCO should reject the design?  

As one of my old bosses used to say: is a FRA not comparable to a car's MOT? The MOT standard is one that you shouldn't let your car fall below, but you'd never build a new one to MOT standards?

You would. The MOT is a safety not a style issue. A vehicle has to be safe on the roads regardless of the age and any road vehicle has to meet a minimum standard of safety set down in guidance. A new flash car like yours Northy may be able to stop from 60 mph within 20M whereas my more mature jaloppy would take 40. But does that mean I have to take my passion wagon off the road because yours can stop sooner than mine.
I keep getting the feeling that in many cases fire alarm systems are installed in premises because someone, including BC and F&RS IOs, thinks there has to be one installed without taking into consideration the size, layout and use. That to me is style policing.

[Wiz]

And many electicians who install fire alarms. Like the one who told me that " the Law says any workplace with more than 5 staff must have at least an L3 system. No choice. Its what the Law says."

Was the lawman in this case John Wayne, Prof.? Or some other cowboy?

[colin todd]

By defintion, smoke alarms in a workplace cannot be claimed to comply with BS 5839-6, because it is outside scope of Part 6.  That does not mean it can nver ever  ever be ok, just that it will not comply with any standard.

[AnthonyB]

If ADB & BS5839 was followed as it is printed a lot of buildings would still have Category M systems with detection only P1 or P2 if the insurers or client wanted property protection.

Yet it seems to be the done thing for L1 to go in every new build and for full AFD on any floor refurb that requires BCO approval.

Millions will have been spent over the years on over provision, risk assessment or not, mainly because no-one dares challenge the status quo presumably down to cost and not wanting the BCO to have a chip on their shoulder for future projects.

It's very rare for me to require L1 in an FRA, yet I doubt I've put any lives at risk!

[Northern Uproar]

Yet it seems to be the done thing for L1 to go in every new build and for full AFD on any floor refurb that requires BCO approval.

Millions will have been spent over the years on over provision, risk assessment or not, mainly because no-one dares challenge the status quo presumably down to cost and not wanting the BCO to have a chip on their shoulder for future projects.

A lot of what goes into buildings are part of a specification that goes into a contract with the end user and goes outside of the scope of the BCO, (particularly with local authority buildings). I've just dealt with one office which had large roof spaces, and the M&E contractor wanted to remove the void detection, as providing it would require gantry access etc and would cost the contractor thousands, which was fine with me as the existing arrangements were an over-provision for BR purposes (an L3 would have been fine). But the contract stated an L1 system must be provided, so it's followed as they don't want to get into difficulties when the 5839 cert is handed over.

[AnthonyB]

It sounds like those drawing up the contracts as part of the design either over spec to cover their backsides, or just don't know!

Obviously the install company have to follow the spec, it's just where on earth it comes from (like full common systems in purpose built flats)

[nearlythere]

It sounds like those drawing up the contracts as part of the design either over spec to cover their backsides, or just don't know!

Obviously the install company have to follow the spec, it's just where on earth it comes from (like full common systems in purpose built flats)

My theory AB is that architects just whack it in to be sure.

[assured]

I enjoy a heated discussion.

5839 Part 6: Code of practice for the design, installation and maintenance of fire detection and fire alarm systems in dwellings .

Hit the nail on the head with that one, Wiz.

Anything further than this and you are looking at a category of system within Part 1.

Small single story buildings aside, Is there any point in making it less black and white than this?

[CivvyFSO]

Small single story buildings aside, Is there any point in making it less black and white than this?

Hardly black and white if you consider it suitable for a small commercial premises is it?

[nearlythere]

I enjoy a heated discussion.

5839 Part 6: Code of practice for the design, installation and maintenance of fire detection and fire alarm systems in dwellings .

Hit the nail on the head with that one, Wiz.

Anything further than this and you are looking at a category of system within Part 1.

Small single story buildings aside, Is there any point in making it less black and white than this?

Assured. I can see your interest in pressing the guide which states the recommendation for Pt1. I had recently asked a Fire Alarm engineer to provide a quote for a small first floor dental surgery with inner rooms. I had asked him to quote for a L5 detection system due to the inner room conditions only with a manual call point at the head of the stairway. There is no communication between the ground floor and the stairway which is concrete.
The building is in multi ownership with each owner occupying each floor so a building common system is another issue.
The spark came up with a quote for around £2000 for providing afd in every room and two call points in the stairway, top and bottom.

Asking him why he proposes this level of cover he said that the BS says so. It was also apparent that he had no idea, or maybe didn't want to know, of any category other than 1 & 2.

The front of my head was bleeding for days due to the wall.