Author Topic: Retired Fire Officers  (Read 18609 times)

Offline jasper

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 294
Retired Fire Officers
« on: July 17, 2005, 08:17:49 AM »
I have just had news from a local council that my company will no longer be working for them after 3 years of fire risk assessment work in their schools. This is basically due to the fact that they have employed a retired fire officer and he is charging the schools less than £100 per day to undertake assessments and as they are responsible for their own budjets, you know which quote they are going to accept.
This has annoyed me in two ways; firstly, the council's school safety team are telling the schools that they are required to undertake fra's and charging them (at a rate no company can match) for the service
Secondly, this is a message from me to all retired fire officers -  you receive one of the best pensions in the country, so when it is time to retire, please retire gracefully and go to Spain and stop beig so greedy and taking contracts from people who are trying to make a living
jasper

messy

  • Guest
Retired Fire Officers
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2005, 11:31:26 AM »
It's all about market forces Jasper. How you can be so arrogant to suggest that retired fire officers should stagnate in Spain, whilst others, who choose the FS consultants route, are left free to charge ridiculous fees is staggering.

I recently looked at a 'professional' FRA document (not one of Colin's I add!) which was five pages long, missed several blindingly obvious 'significant findings' and cost the poor businessman £700!. So you can see there's plenty of room for some undercutting although, I agree, <£100 does seem a little cheap for a School FRA.

I'm not keen on Spain and when I retire (not long now) I look forward to topping up my pension in anyway I wish.

Maybe if you could spell budget (i.e. with a 'g' rather than a 'j') and 'being' with a 'n', maybe you'd get more work.

I understand that ASDA are taking on hundreds of shelf fillers. Good luck!

Gary Howe

  • Guest
Retired Fire Officers
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2005, 11:57:00 AM »
£100 per day, well you are certainly going to get a comprehensive FRA done for that money (I think not).  I agree with your sentiments Jasper, many people are in it for a quick and easy buck, a tick list FRA is most likely what these people are using, for this sort of money you have to question just what you are getting?

When I hear of this I despair, it just dumming down, what should otherwise be a professional occupation, I suppose the client thinks that because he is an ex fire safety officer then he know his stuff!

One of these days, a incomplete or rushed FRA will appear before a court, then we will see whether all these Tom, Dick and Harry’s are so keen on doing them, after its easy anyone can do them, can’t they?

Offline b217bravo

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 23
Retired Fire Officers
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2005, 01:01:16 PM »
I symathise fully with your situation Jasper, welcome to the world of Thatcherite economics, "Greed is good"

However you situation is not confined solely to the effects of retired officers, I know pesonally of several small businesses that have been driven under by serving ff's moonlighting during rest days.

Taxi driving, painting & decorating, window cleaning, gardening, labouring are popular with ff's without a trade whilst plumbing, electrical, joinery & building work attracts the tradesmen amongst them, you name the job there is probably a serving ff doing it part time.

Geoff

Offline jasper

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 294
Retired Fire Officers
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2005, 02:39:45 PM »
messy
You have obviously chosen your profession in the fire service, but did you do this like we all do so you can retire at an earlier age? Or just as a stepping stone to then set-up your own business?
With my own career I hope to work till 55 then retire, not get my pension and then undercut others claiming to be an ex-fire safety consultant with 30 years experience.
 As Gary remarked regarding tick lists, you are correct in with the statement as this retired fire officer does in fact do basic tick lists and provides no follow up information to enable clients to comply.
Finally messy, your dig regarding my spelling – I do in fact have a problem with my spelling which is called dyslexia. The message box for posting was not copied and pasted into Microsoft Word like this one has been, therefore I apologise. This however has not hindered me in the past with my 5 ‘a’ levels or Bsc (Hon) in fire safety, or the work I undertake for large multi-national companies.
p.s. the Spain thing was a joke – it’s much cheaper to retire to Bulgaria 

Offline jasper

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 294
Retired Fire Officers
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2005, 02:43:21 PM »
I agree with you b217bravo completely, as I have some of my best buddies in the fire service and many of then did infact say that one of the main reasons they voted for the strike was due to the fact that their working hours would change from 2 days 2 nights four off and would affect their 'other' work

Offline Brian Catton

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 150
Retired Fire Officers
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2005, 04:59:27 PM »
Jasper,
You will have paid thousands in taxes over the years some of which will have gone to pay my salary for at least part of the 30 years that I served. It gave me good training in fire safety which I used for the benefit of the public I served. I thought it was such a pity to waste all this experience and expertise so I now put it to good use as a fire advisor in the NHS. Now about the pension. I paid for the pension and cannot see how it is relevant to a retired fire officers choice of employment when they retire.

Offline colin todd

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3473
  • Civilianize enforcement -you know it makes sense.
    • http://www.cstodd.co.uk
Retired Fire Officers
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2005, 06:18:40 PM »
Any decent inspecting officer should be able to carry out a competent FRA, so, when he retires, what harm is there if he goes out offering his services for whatever fees he chooses. Are we sure that the first message is not just yet another wind up. I cannot believe anyone would seriously believe what is said. I have long and openly stated that the old retired duffers can do a prefectly good job and that professional consultants cannot compete with that end of the market. Having said that, they often have no PI insurance (or not of the appropriate limit). Also, I have been disappointed to see some examples of such people's work and a problem that never occurred to me before relates to CPD, and there is where Mr Carrot's point about greed may possibly have some relevance. What I never fully appreciated before is that what they do is this. They think cor blimey guv'nor , stone the crows, imagine if I charge £200 a day. Well that's let me see now ummm where's my calculator, thats £1000 a week, so wot about this. I will spend a couple of days doing the ole DIY for the ole Dutch, take the old bat out for runs in the country, etc 2 days. That leaves , let me see now ummmmm 5-2, wheres my calculator, yes I think thats 3 days to earn all this dosh, so thats £600 per week. A holiday in spain or two for the Old dutch, thats --wait my calculator is running red hot there are so many noughts, say 48 times 600 thats £28,800 on top of the old pension. Cor blimey, Ill be rich!!!! Then reality dawns. They think that all they have to do is hang up their sign and people will come running, after all they were a member of the British Fire Service. But the phone isnt ringing. Oh heck no one knows they are there. But marketing costs money, and that would have to come off the old fortune. Tell you what, drop the rates a bit, after all there is loadsa dosh. And then there is my mate old Fred. he has been in the consultancy game for a bit since he retired, and he says he can let me have a bit. Only thing is he wants some of the dosh, but hey there is loadsa dosh remember. fred says just to get the old Dutch to type the reports, no matter that she was a dressmaker and cant spell very well, but hey with spellcheck who cares. Dont want to employ a proper secretary , they would want some of the dosh. Fred says dont worry about layout and stuff like that, just get the gubbins down. Fred says he wont bother checking the reports for technical content, after all as he says no one bothered when I was in the brigade. He says he will look for spellling errors, though his spelling is not too hot himself. I still have some of the old brigade guidance notes with standard wordings. I can use them. they will do the bizz. Some wallah was trying to sell me subscriptions to some magazines. To heck with that, it would mean some money off the loadsa dosh. And the old dutch is moaning about her arthritis with all this typing, so I might need to get some dolly bird to do a bit of typing in the evenings. wonder if some of the brigade secretaries would like a bit of pcoket money. Some geezer was trying to sell me training and conferences. I gave him short shift. I was in the British fire service, you dont get better training than that. And with the old brigade guidance notes whats new to learn. he was rabbitting on about changes to standards and stuff, load of old codswallop. You should see the price of the seminars too. They must think I am made of dosh. And I am sooooooooo busy with my £100 a day thats left after I paid fred and the dolly, that I cant afford the loss of earnings to go hither and thither and read this that and the other to keep up to date. Gor blimey, now some geezer was offering to sell me access to standards online for about 4 grand. Have they any idea how long it takes me to earn 4 grand. No neither have I cos the batteries in the calculator have gone, working out all those damn noughts. And so off he goes still quoting BS 5423 for the fire extinguishers (as I saw recently in one case) and telling people what the 1985 building regs said (as I saw in another case) or (and here is the real beaut) quoting brigade guidance notes on the DRAFT pre 1997 regs (so even the name was wrong) and telling people if you have an OSRA certificate you will still have to do an FRA, implying if you have a FPA cert you dont. I wonder if these people would consult a doctor who used to work for the NHS in the 1990s but hasnt as much as read the Lancet since that time. I am not sure whether it is greed, lack of professionalism, sheer ignorance or a form of arrogance, or a combination fo the lot. But I would stress that this is SOME of the retirees, and I would further stress that, if they are prepared to do a proper job and treat it as a profession, in the same way as people like Brian, and not just drinking money, they will probably do a good job and good luck to them. Let them charge what they want its a free market and let them enjoy their pesnion, which, after all, they paid for. As for me, I have done 30 years continuous in fire safety come this November, so I might retire and become a CFO. I wont need to keep up to date then, cos I will leave it all the Dep and just spend my time being nice to the Members of the Fire Authority. How hard can that be?
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Offline stevew

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 149
    • http://firesureuk.co.ok
Retired Fire Officers
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2005, 07:30:52 PM »
Don't tar all ex fire officers with the same brush.

I have spent the last 5 years building a company that offers a professional service tailored to the clients individual needs.  With less than 1% client loss over the period I like to think that I must have got something right.  When setting up the company I read much about business strategy and was reminded that there will always be someone who wants something for nothing and this should not influence pricing strategy.  I am confident that my charges are appropriate to the service provided.    

I believe in fair competition, however there are many competitors out there
ex-fire officers included that are confusing employers through very poor advice.      
This is where fairness is replaced with frustration.

Offline Brian Catton

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 150
Retired Fire Officers
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2005, 08:05:04 PM »
Colin, Thanks for those nice words.(how true) If this is a wind up it has certainly caught a few of us. If we were fish we would be all laying together on a very cold slab. I have never seen you write such a long reply. Have you thought about following JK Rowling. CS Todd and the Golden Phoenix.
If you want to be a CFO be quick otherwise you may need to have a gender change.
To the other doubters of retired FPOS (as we used to be called, although we could never prove that we  prevented anything) bring it on I am enjoying the debate. Lets talk about Fire Safety though instead of the emotive claptrap about pensions. I note that the FBU man(Dave Bev?) has not entered the debate. Must be on holiday

Offline colin todd

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3473
  • Civilianize enforcement -you know it makes sense.
    • http://www.cstodd.co.uk
Retired Fire Officers
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2005, 08:43:57 PM »
Nah, as a good leftie, davey will be out of it on brown ale at weekends. (Who is J K Rowling????) As for CFOs, if I need to wear black stockings to earn £120k per annum, take me to the nearest Victoria's secrets.
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

messy

  • Guest
Retired Fire Officers
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2005, 10:03:32 PM »
Jasper

I am very grateful of the professional advice and information shared on this site and use it to backup less than adequate training from my own Brigade. Check my other posts here and you'll see I have never entered into personal attacks here, but I was annoyed about the  tone of your post.
 
Suggesting that anyone who works when retired is greedy is a little naive at best and rather personal. I too have paid in for many years into the pension scheme so I feel entirely justified in claiming what is due when the day comes. For the record, I knew nothing about the retirement age or the pension when I joined and it was a compulsory scheme then and both my Brigade & FBU advised me not to opt out when it became possible in the 80s..

As for FFs working on leave days. Why is it often considered a disgrace that a nurse or teacher feels that they need to work down the pub in the evening to supplement their public service wage, whereas when a FF does the same it's greed??

Thanks for the tip on Bulgaria. I could probably buy an entire street there with my commutation

Offline AnthonyB

  • Firenet Extinguisher Expert
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2489
    • http://www.firewizard.co.uk
Retired Fire Officers
« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2005, 10:57:55 PM »
My main concern with anyone doing anything to do with fire safety is not their cost, but more to the point is their work any good. I have seen some absolutely horrendous standards of PFE servicing and also FRAs from people who either never knew what they were doing or are many years out of date.

I will admit that often they are the cheap small or one man set ups, but ther are also a fair number of big expensive nationals who give rise to nightmares.

I admit it is very annoying when someone undercuts you by incredulous amounts, but if their work is OK I can tolerate it. What sends me into an apoplectic fit is when the work is substandard & this can be both in the public sector (certain brigade PFE service depts spring to mind) & private (long lists here)
Anthony Buck
Owner & Fire Safety Consultant at Fire Wizard


Extinguisher/Fire History Enthusiast

Fire Extinguisher Facebook Group:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=65...415&ref=ts
http://www.youtube.com/user/contactacb
https://uk.linkedin.com/in/anthony-buck-36

Offline dave bev

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 623
Retired Fire Officers
« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2005, 12:18:46 PM »
hmmmmmmm, where to start

mr catton, i was indeed away for a few days - carrying the banner of the fbu at the tolpuddle festival - something about workers organising themselves if i can remember the story (LOL) so now we have workers organising themselves independantly and the world is full of woes. where a worker gets their skills from is a poor argument, assuming that the workers themself have not contributed to their own development its all been given to them and bloody thankful they should be too!!

is this debate about appropriate standards (as perhaps it should be) or about one worker taking the work of another by being prepared to work for a chepaer rate - because there are a whole host of issues surrounding that debate - when its clear i may decide to contribute fuller - until then i will watch from the sidelines

- unless i get bored and throw in a few 'lefty principles' that some just love to hear!

dave bev

Offline colin todd

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3473
  • Civilianize enforcement -you know it makes sense.
    • http://www.cstodd.co.uk
Retired Fire Officers
« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2005, 06:25:17 PM »
Didn't they end up as martyrs Davey? I hope that the FBU intention is not the same for the firefighters. As for the original posting, I still think its a wind up. I do not think there really is any debate, Davey. We are all agreed that standards are important and that folks can charge what they like, and we do not even grudge ole Messey and his Met chums their pension. I have been to Bulgaria, Messey, only dont tell davey or he will think I am defecting. Loads of big buxom women. You will love it, I assure you.
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates