BAFE SP 205 scheme for fire risk assesment companies: WATCH THIS SPACE

[Clevelandfire 3]

thats true piglet. and as accreditation is not compulsory and can be corrupt flawed expensive and acting in its own intrest or intrests of its senior members i think alot of consultants will steer clear

[colin todd]

Willie, I would wait and see what the prices are likely to be, as you will have plenty of choice. And as that awfully wise Eli used to say (whatever happened to him........) UKAS accreditation is where it should all be.  So, given that no one can run SP 205 without UKAS accreditation, you can take it that SP 205 is SP 205 is SP 205 and then see who is cheapest or most amenable.

As I have tried to say, the competence standard is fine but does not push back any frontiers. It is simply a list of things that anyone doing fire risk assessments should know, and most do. It is not an examination or anything, so you can take it that everyone in the business (whether IFE or a BAFE SP 205 CB or those awfully nice Warrington chaps that Eli used to go on about...whatever happened to him.......) will use it as a basis.

Kelsall, if you should happen to run across that nice Eli chap, will you give him my best wishes and tell him we all miss him (though I dont suppose you are likely to meet him in your travels).

[colin todd]

Clevey, Clevey, Clevey, what a man you are. Could you enlighten us as to how accreditation (by which I think you might mean third party certification, but you might mean professional body registration ) can be corrupt, flawed, expensive and acting in its own interest or the interest of senior members?

Could you also clarify whether this applies to professional body registration or to third party certification or both.

[Clevelandfire 3]

It means both Colin. Please don't assume Im silly enough to name names in a public forum. I speak to fellow professionals regularly who have little faith in both third party schemes and professional body registration full stop. I know what I know, you know what you know. Lets leave it at that. If not then  message me and we will continue the discussion in private.

[colin todd]

Clevey, as a supporter of 3rd party certification and one involved in all sorts of fora and activities to make it work, I am intrigued.  Please feel free to email me with your views at colin.todd@cstodd.co.uk.  I am always interested in the views of FRS people even when they are misguided (which you may or may not be).

[Clevelandfire 3]

Firstly Colly Im not an FRS person. But never mind. Im self employed in the private sector as one of those fire risk-a-guesser types. Just like you actually. If you can come up with a decent 3rd party scheme I will support it. I support the notion of 3rd party schemes as they can be a good thing I just dont like how some are operated. I would be extremely suprised suspicious sceptical and a bit worried if you told me you havent heard about the pitfalls of some existing schemes. Im a busy guy Col why dont you message me if you are really that intrested. im forever happy to enlighten the misguided (which you may or not be)

[William 29]

I have now looked in to and got quotes for both the FRACS and SP205 BAFE scheme via NSI.

•   Both seem similar in terms of the process and required competencies
•   The fee to have “lead assessors” under SP205 scheme is higher than the FRACS
•   The overall cost compared to the “Silver” level of SP205 to FRACS was about £300 (SP205 being the most expensive)
•   The Silver level involves the company being assessed to provide a documented quality management system (DMS)
•   There is a Gold level that requires the assessed Company to provide a DMS to meet the requirements of BS EN ISO 9001:2008
•   There is a significant difference in the Gold and silver level fees and on going cost
•   The FRACS just has one level
•   Both will be UKAS accredited but the FRACs seems to be further down the line that SP205

The most significant difference that I can see is that the SP205 scheme are proposing to charge an additional £10 per certificate of compliance with each FRA produced that they say can “just be passed on to the client”.  Problem is these will need to be paid for in advance and I assume in batches and considering we did around 700 fire risk assessments last year this is a significant outlay.
The FRACS also provides a certificate with each FRA but this is inclusive of the scheme overall fees.

I hope that brings a little more info for those looking at a 3rd party scheme and I’d be interested in any views.

[kurnal]

Thanks William.
If you go down the SP205 line and the client will not stand the extra £10 (most of mine are still expecting sub 2005 prices) then it could be a pretty  major hit on the bottom line. There is no option to offer FRAs outside the scheme because according to the  document every life safety assessment conducted by the certified company must be provided with a certificate.

When you say the certificate fee has to be paid up front I guess its paid in advance  along with the subscription?

We do a lot of work for other companies, with their badges and graphics.  I wonder where this fits into the equation.

Do you have to fund the accommodation and travel for the assessors in addition to the fee?
Will the SP205 assessors be looking just at systems or will they be competent and accredited fire risk assessors themselves?  

I heard that one of the companies offering SP205 was having to train people up in how to carry out a fire risk assessment. This may be malicious rumour and I wouldbe happy to be corrected if anyone knows better.

[William 29]

Thanks William.
If you go down the SP205 line and the client will not stand the extra £10 (most of mine are still expecting sub 2005 prices) is there an option to offer FRAs outside the scheme?

When you say it has to be paid up front I guess its paid in advance  along with the subscription?

Do you have to fund the accommodation and travel for the assessors in addition to the fee?
Will the SP205 assessors be looking just at systems or will they be competent and accredited fire risk assessors themselves?  I heard that one of the companies offering SP205 was having to train people up in how to carry out a fire risk assessment. This may be malicious rumour and I wouldbe happy to be corrected if anyone knows better.

I can't see a reason why you couldn't offer a non 3rd party assessment fee at a cheaper rate but I would probably not give the client that option.

With FRACS they are very clear and want to see evidence that any FRA NOT done by an accredited assessor is clearly stated to the client at that the FRA is outside of the FRACS scheme.

Not sure about how payment for the certificates would work, I was just thinking practically that you would need a 100 or so in stock so another £1000 on top!

Our assessors get an inclusive fee of travel, on site FRA and completion of documentation.  Too messy any other way.

It is the Company that is accredited NOT the individual.  Any FRA produced by an assessor that has been included under the SP205 or FRACS process i.e. had 2 of their FRAs evaluated and completed various verbal, desk top and written assessments is included.  They would not be 3rd party accredited if they completed an FRA in their own write.  The majority of our consultants only do work for us but work on a sub contract basis.  Those that have their own companies have gone through or will consider being 3rd party accredited in their own rights.

[nearlythere]

Thanks William.
If you go down the SP205 line and the client will not stand the extra £10 (most of mine are still expecting sub 2005 prices) is there an option to offer FRAs outside the scheme?

When you say it has to be paid up front I guess its paid in advance  along with the subscription?

Do you have to fund the accommodation and travel for the assessors in addition to the fee?
Will the SP205 assessors be looking just at systems or will they be competent and accredited fire risk assessors themselves?  I heard that one of the companies offering SP205 was having to train people up in how to carry out a fire risk assessment. This may be malicious rumour and I wouldbe happy to be corrected if anyone knows better.

It is the Company that is accredited NOT the individual. 

And that is a real problem. I know of a company which gained its 3rd party accreditation through a former employee, lets call him Bill. Bill left the company about a year ago but it continues to flag his accreditation banner.
Before he left the company employed a Fire Risk Assessor who asked Bill what at a Category 1 FA system meant.

[Tom W]

I can't see a reason why you couldn't offer a non 3rd party assessment fee at a cheaper rate but I would probably not give the client that option.

With FRACS they are very clear and want to see evidence that any FRA NOT done by an accredited assessor is clearly stated to the client at that the FRA is outside of the FRACS scheme.

Not sure about how payment for the certificates would work, I was just thinking practically that you would need a 100 or so in stock so another £1000 on top!

Our assessors get an inclusive fee of travel, on site FRA and completion of documentation.  Too messy any other way.

It is the Company that is accredited NOT the individual.  Any FRA produced by an assessor that has been included under the SP205 or FRACS process i.e. had 2 of their FRAs evaluated and completed various verbal, desk top and written assessments is included.  They would not be 3rd party accredited if they completed an FRA in their own write.  The majority of our consultants only do work for us but work on a sub contract basis.  Those that have their own companies have gone through or will consider being 3rd party accredited in their own rights.

[/quote]

William, you have confussed me slightly.

You have got quotes from two UKAS schemes, The SP205 is a company scheme you didn't say if the quote you got from Warrington was the person scheme or company scheme.

I looked at the company scheme from Warrington a while a go and they were massive, much more than the chap from NSI told me about at firex.

Sorry its just some detail thats lacking. I just want to make sure we are comparing the same schemes.

SP205 - Company accreditation
FRACS - COMPANY accreditation

Can I ask actually what costs you were quoted for each?

[Tom W]

So Fracs is

Stage 1 £350
Stage  2 £300
Yearly subscription £250 (4 years)

So for a team of 5 thats £7000+vat over 4 years.

http://www.warringtoncertification.com/content/attachments/fracs-scheme-document.pdf

[Kelsall]

Piglet

The Individual FRACS scheme is aimed at sole traders, very small companies or subcontractors. For a team of 5 you would be looking at the company scheme which would be around a 20 - 30% saving on putting everyone through the individual route.

[William 29]

So Fracs is

Stage 1 £350
Stage  2 £300
Yearly subscription £250 (4 years)

So for a team of 5 thats £7000+vat over 4 years.

http://www.warringtoncertification.com/content/attachments/fracs-scheme-document.pdf

The figures above are nothing like what we have been quoted?  We have 40% discount for IFSM membership

[William 29]

William, you have confussed me slightly.

You have got quotes from two UKAS schemes, The SP205 is a company scheme you didn't say if the quote you got from Warrington was the person scheme or company scheme.



SP205 - Company accreditation
FRACS - COMPANY accreditation

Can I ask actually what costs you were quoted for each?

Both quotes are for Company schemes for between 1 and 2 lead ("sign off assessors/managers) plus 7 other assessors.

Happy to discuss the quotes if you inbox me but perhaps not on a public forum.