Author Topic: Part-time work  (Read 74789 times)

Offline colin todd

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« Reply #30 on: August 01, 2005, 01:58:09 PM »

1. It is good practice to establish relations with clients. Many of our clients have the consultants' CVs. Many go to lunch with them. It would be necessary to bend over backwards to keep clients from knowing that the so-called consultant was an I/O (at best) making a bit on the side. If you feel that this smacks of a professional practice, then we need to agree to difffer. In the meantime, I have a few days off due, so could I come and do some I/O work for you. (We will not tell your punters that I am really a moonlighting consultant if you want.) Equally, all your posttings on this point seem to suggest that the fact the guy is really a fire officer making a bit on the side can easily be concealed. But if there is nothing wrong or unprofessionla about the prinicple, why conceal it. You have never addressed this question, which I put to you before. Thank you for your comments about being obnoxious. I think that's the nicest thing anyone has ever said to me. (Maybe we have different definitions of obnoxious of course.)

2. You appear to have answered a question with a question. CPD does not have a standard, a point that Mr Smith made and with which I agree.

3 Not applicable, but I include the reference for completness.

4. Neither, but you at least you have had it confirmed that your assumption was correct.

5. Yes, quite sure. 5A (I think). I have never emplyed useless staff; they all have many years of continuous service in fire safety, something that is very rare in FRSs as fire safety is seen as a career move (at best), or punishment (at worst). When we take them on, we do an analysis of their training needs and the work necessary to update them, and proceed accordingly. 5B (I think) Their pesnion is irrelevant to me and is not tkane into account in their salaries. I missed the relevance of the pension, (for which they have paid) point, so perhaps you could explain it. 5C (I think) I was not making an assumption, merely reflecting on 30 years experience of dealing with FRSs, and, as a result of many FRSs not taking fire safety seriously enough, not enough work is done to enable the officers to carry out CPD.

Mr Smith: Please see reference above to your posting.

Christopher: It is stale as last week's milk, but ever mindful of the need to help our friends and colleagues in the fire service, I will be pleased to continue with further advice for the gentleman as long as he seeks it.

Davey: Do we commies really like free speech? Is this a new policy on which I need to do some political CPD?
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Offline fireftrm

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« Reply #31 on: August 01, 2005, 06:42:41 PM »
1. The reason I did not address the concealment issue? Who said anything about concealing it - that is apart from you? I made the point that the FSO would have made a secondary employment application, would be properly employed by the 'consulantcy' firm and would therefore have two jobs - no concealment. You brought up the subject of 'moonlighting' which suggests hiding from the taxman, I argued quite clearly against such an obvious attempt to smear anyone with more than one job as a 'tax evader'.
If you wiish to say 'I am sorry xxx is not in today they are working for xxx and will be back in on xxx' then fine - all the 'they are at their proper job' etc is where I feel you were being somehwat childish in attempting to make an anti-FRS personnle point. Not at all professional to use that sort of wording to a customer.
2. CPD doesn't have a standard but there are standards against which it can be measured, such as NOS etc..............
3. mm
4. mm again
5. Pension point is that they are already being paid by a FRS - yes they have made contributions, but then so have those still in service (through doing work) the difference is simply whether they still have a position within the FRS. As long as they meet your criteria and are open about the relationship with the second employer I fail to see the problem (PS I am not a FSO and do not want any extra work this is just my opinion). I doubt you need any extra money, but if you wanted to earn some  more from a FRS offering part-time FSO work should you be excluded on the same basis? I don't believe you should. Would this be moonlighting? No. You would be a part-time employee paying tax and therefore legal> there is every reason to expcet that you would be able to apply, such posts are likley in the future, if not already. Some FRS already employ non-operational FSOs and part-time is an accepted work pattern.

Advice I need none, maybe it is quite the other way round.

PSmith - there is a world of difference bewtween gaining a NVQ, based on the NOS, through a one-off collection of evidence and maintaining the competence required of that NOS. Maintenance of competence plus some additional skill development as required by changes to the role/environment in which the role is carried out is CPD. Without a standard to which you work how do you assess whether what the individual is doing is actually CPD? Note that I never used the NVQ as I was careful not to confuse it with the NOS -as it appears you have done.
My posts reflect my personal views and beliefs and not those of my employer. If I offend anyone it is usually unintentional, please be kind. If it is intentional I guess it will be clear!

Offline dave bev

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« Reply #32 on: August 01, 2005, 06:55:56 PM »
colin, what i actually said was -' i may not agree with what some people say, but i will defend their right to say it - so long as it is not designed to cause injustice or hurt to anyone - free speech brings with it a responsibility ..........'

if this equates to a proclaimation for the freedom of speech then im sure the revolution would be all the better for it - then again ..........

as for the cpd on 'commieism' - stick with it comrade - the longer you do it and the more people you do it with can only speed the day when the shackles can be cast from the workers weary limbs and the cry of the capitalist state will consist of one voice proclaiming 'we're all doomed, mr mannering, we're all doomed'!

dave bev

Offline colin todd

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« Reply #33 on: August 01, 2005, 07:29:36 PM »
1. At their proper job was paraphrasing what one would need to say. If you cannot see how embarrassing and unprofessional it would be to say that xxxx only works for us on their days off, then it is because you have no concept of what a professional consulting practice is all about, which actually is the advice that you do seem to require and that, my patience is such, that I am delighted to be able to give you in the spirit of cooperation.
2. There is no occupational standard for consultancy.
3. I will not dignify with a response.
4. I will not dignify with a response.
5. I fail to see how availing themselves of a pension for which they have paid for 30 years has any analogy with being employed full time by a FRS/working part time on days off for a consultant. Sorry, needs further explanation. 5B Love the idea of working for a FRS on days off-would weekends be ok? Can you put in a good word with your HR people for me.

Not convinced that Mr Smith is confused, but no doubt he can speak for himself.

Davie; Can you recommend some reading material for my commie CPD record. Is there still such a thing as the Morning Star? Will The Rack be writing a little red book like Chairman Whatsisname did?
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Offline dave bev

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« Reply #34 on: August 01, 2005, 08:04:28 PM »
colin - the morning star does indeed still exist as does a number of other suitable materials for those who have wandered far from the path bestowed on them throught the lottery of birth!

may i suggest - janet and john go to the commune, the lion the witch and the 'peace'drobe, my life as a part of a collective, as starters? try to refrain from games such as monopoly and who wants to be a millionaire and you could be well on your way!

dave bev

ok you lot, on with your debate which i am enjoying from afar!

Offline Paul

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« Reply #35 on: August 01, 2005, 08:51:16 PM »
Thank you Colin,

Yes I will take up the point raised.

Fireftrm, it appears that I maybe confused, but only with were this is going.  I fail to see how the NVQ process is CPD.   As you say, ‘ maintenance of competence’ is surly maintaining the same standard that you were already assessed to be achieving.  Not a wasted exercise in itself, as it ensures that an individual is continually at the minimum standard set out in the NVQ process, but again I can not see how this CPD.  Quote ‘plus some additional skill development as required by changes to the role/environment in which the role is carried out is CPD’, please be more specific, as I can not see how the role or environment has changed or continues to change sufficiently to warrant calling skill development in this context CPD.

Misguided I may be, confused………only in that I fail to see how you can treat the standards set in the NVQ any differently than those they are taken from,  namely NOS.

Paul

Offline fireftrm

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« Reply #36 on: August 02, 2005, 07:45:05 AM »
Where did NVQ process come in? You are qquite right that it has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH CPD, but then again it was you who introduced that wholly inappropraite concept.........that is why I think you are confused.

The NVQ is a one-time qualification based on the assessment of evidence against a NOS, not necessarily all the NOS, or all the potential evidence either. It is a QUALIFICATION. No more. It requires no maintenance of competence , further personal development, or continual assessment thereof.

The NOS is a set of job descriptors for a role set by industry lead bodies nationally. a NOS is not prescriptive as to the evidence, the numberof times or the assessment requirements - the NVQ is. Working to a NOS means that you continue to do so and it will have terms covering such areas as relevant legislation. If you were doing an NVQ you would have to demonstrate knowledge/understanding of those areas at the time of assessment. If you are using the NOS as one basis for your CPD (Continuing personal/professional development) then you would have to CONTINUE to have the knwoldege and understanding, thus you would need to be reading professional jouranls, studying new legislation and practices - the lack of which Colin suggests is a trait of FRS FSOs, well they are not being assessed against an NOS then, which they now should be.

So, unless you wish to continue being confused and blinkered, note that there is a world of difference between working to a standard continuoulsy (CPD) and doing it enough times to get a vocational qualification (NVQ). Most reasoned professioanl trainers understand this regime, indeed for training an deductaion (as well as many other professions) it is their NOS that is used to determine the quality/sufficiency of their CPD. Are you arguing that the fire industry should ignore the real world, or that your idea of CPD (which I assume must be do what you decide is right yourself with no standard) is the best?

Misguided you almost certianly are.



Some thoughts from training and development professionals:

One defintion of CPD - The systematic maintenance, improvement and broadening of knowledge and skill and the development of personal qualities necessary for the execution of professional and technical duties throughout the practitioner's working life.          

(Interestingly this is a defintion that is fully covered by working to any NOS. An NOS will include a unit on personal development to ensure that you broaden skills and knowledge constantly)

 WHY CPD IS IMPORTANT
First, it should be emphasised that the concept of CPD is not new. Effective professionals in all fields have always realised the importance of new knowledge, improved skills and the development of personal qualities. In effect, CPD is simply part of good professional practice. What is new, however, is the greater importance and relevance of CPD to professional success. A study undertaken in the United Kingdom (Welsh and Woodward, 1989), identified the following reasons to account for the growing importance of CPD.

Competence: It has been estimated that the knowledge gained in some degree courses, particularly IT based, has an average useful lifespan of about four years. While this will vary according to the discipline, it does nevertheless highlight the increasing need to maintain an active interest in keeping up to date with changing technology, legislation and operational procedures. If at the same time, professionals have expectations of increased managerial responsibility, the need to acquire new skills and knowledge is even more acute.
(COMPETENCE - set standards for which are known as NOS!)

Consumerism: The development of a more affluent consumer society has also resulted in a better informed and more sophisticated public. One consequence of this trend is that they expect a higher duty of care and level of service from their professional advisors than in the past. Again the skills acquired during an initial training period or during higher or further education may not equip new staff for this role.
(Continued working to a NOS will ensure that you meet the latest customer requirements - this should be reasonably clear fromt he NOS)

Litigation: The professions are increasingly at much high risk from claims of negligence than in the past. Professional indemnity (PI) insurance premiums have risen considerably in recent years. CPD may not totally eliminate PI claims; however, if sceptics are worried by the cost of CPD, such claims may help emphasise the potential cost of ignorance! Some evidence is also emerging that insurance companies may be willing to slightly reduce PI premiums, if a structured CPD programme is available to staff.
(What better basis for a structure to demonstrate in litigation that that it is the NOS you were using?)

Standards : One of the primary roles of professional bodies is to safeguard standards of competence. CPD has a key role to play in the communication of agreed standards and in ensuring that members comply with specified procedures.
Quality Management System : The increasing emphasis on quality management systems and the ethos of continuous improvement has also increased the relevance of CPD. Training and education are key elements of quality assurance processes and of the ‘Investors in People’ (IIP) standard.
(Standards of competence = NOS where written!)

Competitiveness : The recent recession has re-emphasised the highly competitive nature of modern business. Whether in the private or increasingly, in the privatised public/state sector, the competitive market edge must be partly or totally focused on client care/service quality and technological innovation. Both demand a high investment in developing people skills, if they are to be effective
(Where do you get a nice set of standards against which to assess peoples skills - NOS)

For example the CPD for teachers is based on (guess what?) a Standards Framework of the role. Umm, now why does that sound familiar?
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Offline colin todd

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« Reply #37 on: August 03, 2005, 12:24:29 AM »
Not sure if you are ranting at poor old Mr Smith, who seems a sensible sort of chap, or me or both, but instead of all this philosophical waffle, let's get down to business. I note that you are not an FSO (if I understand your posting correctly) so here is a wee practical test for your FSO-ey type chappies. Ring one of your fire safety offices tomorrow and ask whichever I/o is present what the FRS has done in the light of BS 5266-8 and what they think the significant feature of that code is. No cheating now--I am putting you on trust! Let me know as soon as possible. Judging by the excellent speed of your responses, which, with the way things are going, is likely to be better than the FRS attendance times soon, I hope to see the I/O response by lunchtime, as it should only take a quick call. Clock is ticking.........
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Offline fireftrm

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« Reply #38 on: August 03, 2005, 09:43:58 AM »
I had an immediate response to my request with a web link to their documentation relating to BS5266 and freely avaiable to both FSOs and the public - http://www.northumberland.gov.uk/drftp/3337.asp

This is presently being revised in light of the testing requirements of the new part 8 and they are being trained in the application of the code. With the RRO coming into force and present licencing work they have not had this as a main issue but are coming back with an answer within the next couple of hours. Being a very small department (of 6 - 4 flexi) there are only 3 in and all are out doing inspections this morning.

As you are obvioulsy aware the code is so new it is still unkown by virtually all the 'consultants' too! I checked this by ringing two local fire safety consultants, they thought it was some joke as BS5266 only goes up to part7 - they said. At least my FS dept knew that there was a part 8, albeit that they are still working at its implications. My FS dept also have full access to the technical indexes, though the passowrds lie with FSOs, thus the delay in response.

Out of interest how much do you think the advice from the FSO would cost a business and what relation this has to the same advice from you? This may have a bearing on the relevance of the time taken?

After thsi particulalry poor attempt at throwing in something so new please don't bother again until your private industry colleagues have caught up too. It doesn't do the industry any favours by trying to show people up by quoting things you know that most don't - yet. Indeed all you achieve is the belittling of most and by association the entire sector is damaged.


PS I was getting at Mr Smith who seems to be totally confused by the difference between a NOS and a NVQ.
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Offline wee brian

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« Reply #39 on: August 03, 2005, 01:29:09 PM »
Its ahorrible standard isnt it - I'll start a new thread - this one is going on a bit.

Offline Paul

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« Reply #40 on: August 03, 2005, 02:50:25 PM »
I must apologise for not replying to the previous thread, have been working away!!

I agree with WeeB, this is getting a littlke boring.  Just to add, I do not have any problems with understanding the difference between NVQ and the NOS, can not understand why you think I do.

I simply said that I did not consider the NVQ assessment process to be a type of CPD.  End of Storey.

Very kind of you to let me have the detail on the subject though.

I think the original argument, sorry discussion, refered to fire service employee's carrying out consultancy work on their days off.  The question then refered to the question ' how do such employees carry out CDP'?

I think this is where Fireftrm, you gave justification from the NVQ level 4 standard, along with other factors.  I then simply agreed with Colin that I did not consider the NVQ process to be a form of CPD.

Now correct me if I am wrong, and I'm sure you will, this is where you laboured the subject of NOS and NVQ, giving examples etc, passing comment on my inability to disinguish between the two.  

I think if you played a little more attention to listening, instead of rambling on about the NOS's then you would see that we were basically saying the same thing.

With reference to the original comments, My company has in the past used serving fire officers to carry out consultancy work.  I must say that on these occasions it has proved to be a very drawn out process, one for which I would not consider repeating.  I have however had some very positive experiences with ex-fire officers, and I do agree that what better grounding to work in the consultancy industry than an individual who has had years of training and development thrown at them than that of an ex inspecting officer, although there are some exceptions to the rule.

Fireftrm, I see little point in continuing this debate, as clearly there is nothing to debate, although if you have any other information you would like to send me, please feel free, perhaps if you have a tendancy to be this helpful you could save me the £1400 for the annual BSI subscription and let me have your passwords

Paul

Offline fireftrm

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« Reply #41 on: August 03, 2005, 05:25:57 PM »
You are wrong. I never once referred to any NVQ. I did refer to a NOS, which has been designed to be at Level4. My point was simply that people do tend to get the two thing sconfused, as you have.

I quite agree that the assessment methods and evidence generation for an NVQ is not anything like CPD. But then again that is why I never brought that up, you did.

I did not give the justification of the NOS as a reaosn why FSOs could do the job, that was a response to Colin's childish remarks about FSOs doing no CPD. What I then did was to point out that there is now a NOS they (should) be working to. If you CONTINUE to work to a standard, all of which now contain a personal development unit, then you will be doing CPD.

If you do a NVQ you are not doing CPD, the CPD comes AFTER the qualification.

I still think that you have failed to understand the basic differences between a NOS and a NVQ. There is nothing in your latest post to make me think otherwise.

Back to Colin's attempt to belittle others - perhaps as a writer of the standard you can fully explain to those on this board its meanings, interpretations and points as after all this will provide them with meaningful CPD and I am sure you will agree that that would be very useful? It would laso save them loads of money attending seminars, paying for BS access etc, altogether a great move..............OVER TO YOU.
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Offline colin todd

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« Reply #42 on: August 03, 2005, 06:54:32 PM »
This IS presently being revised? They ARE being trained? The couple of hours has passed. Still no reply? Writer of the standard???? I had not the faintest thing to do with the standard. What an odd remark. The publication of it was as much a surprise to me as to anyone else. The difference is we have mechanisms in place to pick up its publication and disseminate relevant information to people.
And now to the crux of the matter, and since I agree this is soooooooo boring, that I hope it can be my last reflection on the subject. Listen carefully, because I will not repeat it.

BS 5266-8 CAME INTO FORCE ON 20 DECEMBER 2004. OVER 7 MONTHS LATER YOU TELL ME THE I/OS ARE STILL ASSIMILATING ITS CONTENT AND BEING TRAINED IN IT. LET ME AUDIT OUR CPD ON THIS FOR YOU. WE IDENTIFIED THAT IT HAD BEEN PUBLISHED, AROUND EARLY FEBRUARY 2005. WE THEN SPENT CONSIDERABLE TIME INVESTIGATING ITS IMPLICATIONS FOR CLIENTS. ON 24 MARCH, A BULLETIN WAS ISSUED TO ALL CONSULTANTS WITH THE INFO THEY REQUIRED. THE BULLETIN WAS ALSO ISSUED TO ALL SECRETARIAL/WP STAFF, SO AS WE SIT HERE, IT WOULD SEEM TO ME THAT OUR SECRETARIES ARE BETTER INFORMED AND ABLE TO ADVISE PEOPLE ON ITS CONTENTS THAN YOUR I/OS. TEMPLATES FOR REFERENCES TO THE STANDARD WERE CREATED BY WP AND ISSUED A FEW DAYS LATER. THE STANDARD WAS THEN PUT ON OUR CONTROLLED DOC LIST AND HAS BEEN CHECKED FOR AMENDMENTS EVERY MONTH SINCE.
THE POINT IS THIS. ALL THIS BELITTLING OF WHICH YOU ACCUSE IS RUBBISH. READ MY ORIGINAL POINT. I SAID IT WAS JUST MY OPINION BUT THAT IT WAS UNPROFESSINAL TO EMPLOY PEOPLE WHOSE CPD YOU CANNOT CONTROL AND WHOSE STANDARD OF CPD IS, AS YOU POINT OUT, OK FOR THOSE OFFERING FREE ADVICE AND ENFORCING LEGISLATION. IT IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH IN MY OPINION FOR THOSE SELLING ADVICE. THERE IS NOT A LOT OF MARKET FOR ADVICE THAT IS 8 MONTHS OUT OF DATE I BELIEVE. SO ONE WOULD HAVE THE CHOICE , IF EMPLOYING FRS OFFICERS, OF HOPING THAT THE FRS HAS THEIR CPD UP TO DATE (WHICH YOU HAVE JUST DEMONSTRATED THAT IT IS NOT) OR PAYING OUT TO DO THE FRS CPD FOR THEM, WHICH AS A SCOTSMAN I WOULD GRUDGE.
HOPE YOU NOW UNDERSTAND AND THANK YOU FOR PROVING THE POINT FOR ME.
FORGET THE NEW BALLS MESSEY, ITS GAME SET AND MATCH.

HERE ENDETH THE DISCUSSION. (CHRISTOPHER, PLEASE NOTE AND FORGIVE THE DURATION OF THE THREAD, PLEASE)
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Offline dave bev

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« Reply #43 on: August 03, 2005, 07:29:17 PM »
see mr houston - i told you it was worth keeping open for a bit longer! and yes i have learnt something, though i have to admit that me learning something is nothing new (and long may it continue!)

dave bev

Offline colin todd

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« Reply #44 on: August 03, 2005, 07:35:37 PM »
Davey, We commie activists are always happy to assist our brothers through the learning process. Bill on its way to The Rack.
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates