PAS 79:2012– Fire Risk Assessment. Guidance and a recommended methodology

[alfi]

Just ordered my copy of  PAS 79:2012– Fire Risk Assessment. Guidance and a recommended methodolog, looks very handy and good for reference on site, anyone had a chance to look over?

[nearlythere]

Gees. Not another one.

[colin todd]

yes, indeed, nearly. And a cracking read it is too.

[nearlythere]

yes, indeed, nearly. And a cracking read it is too.

[Kelsall]

I am sure PAS 79 will feature in the fire risk assessment template debate at the FRACS day in November. If anyone has opinions on templates and how they contribute to poor fire risk assessments then look out for details of the event which will be out next week. Contribution prior to the event is encouraged and will stimulate the debate on the day.

[colin todd]

I have an opinion. They contribute to good FRAs (if the template is any good) because they drive people to look at the right things and prevent omissions that would otherwise occur. The template in PAS 79 is often described as virtually an industry standard, which is what it has become.  PAS 79 is even mentioned as an example of an FRA specification in BAFE SP 205, which is soon to become one of the most important and widely recognized of the BAFE certification schemes, available from mutiple certification bodies. Rock on!

[alfi]

Well my book arrived very promptly and i've had time to look over, its very good, the templates on the CD are even better as its covers scottish and NI regs too!. I would class myself as an experienced FRA but i'm always open to new ideas and i think this methology is impressive, a good read on the train or when you just need to reference something. I also feel falling into line with this methology will  help with the accreditation process once i've decided which route to follow. again this is just my humble opinion but would recoomend it to others 

[nearlythere]

Is this aimed at experienced fire safety types or can anyone become an "expert" once read?

[Mike Buckley]

I tend to agree with Colin, if the template is any good, it does act as a reminder to ensure that you cover everything when on site. There is the obvious drawback that some people will think that if you fill the template in then you automatically get a good FRA, which is the trap when using templates. On the other hand when I was working with a company that didn't use a template there was always that nagging feeling in the back of my mind when I left the building 'have I covered everything?'.

The other problem with a template is, that no matter how good it is, it will not cover every situation and the assessor has to be able to spot the hazards that are not immediately specified in the template and probably use some imagination to include it into the assessment. For example if a set of fire doors are not closing properly is this a problem with compartmentation, means of escape or maintenance. I would say that it is a matter for all three but which one do I address it under?

I would paraphrase the old saying 'templates are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men'

[Kelsall]

The issue I have seen with PAS 79 templates is that an idiot could fill one in and an experienced fire risk assessor could complete one. The end result is you have a whole load of ticks made on two very different judgments; it doesn't make assessors demonstrate their methodology or rationale for accepting something. I also don't think it’s healthy to have a one size fits all, I have seen a PAS 79 risk assessment that missed something off due to the template deficiencies not the assessors knowledge. As has been said by others if it’s not prompted it isn't recorded. Some companies who are forced to use PAS 79 by their clients don't like the template and in their opinion their own is better. The debate session is something new which is an attempt to share good practice from a variety of sources to benefit the audience. It will examine examples of where templates can contribute to good assessments.

If anyone does have examples of templates contributing to good or bad assessments please do post them in this thread or let me know through private message. Many thanks in advance.

Colin I think you would be more than welcome at the FRACS event where you could express your views on templates etc In fact there is a speaker slot which if you had an interesting case study to share; you could fill. That would save you the price of a ticket £80 including Vat   

[nearlythere]

The butcher's apprentices and industrial rejects don't even have to attend a course any more. Buy a book, place a cd and bingo - insta expert. I can see the template driving the assessment. If it doesn't mention it it isn't necessasy.

Q - Is the means of giving warning of fire adequate for the risk?

A - In my opinion the means of giving warning is adequate for the risk.

(Your honour, at the time of my survey I saw a some bells and break glass boxes so it must have been ok. And oh yes, it had a lightning conductor so the fire safety was well covered.  Spray booth? There was no mention in the template about a spray booth.)

[kurnal]

Yes it could be better if it went down the lines of :
Is the means of giving warning of fire adequate for the risk?
Details of system:
List any recorded variations from BS5839-1:
List any observed variations from BS5839-1:

[colin todd]

Kell,  If it is a load of ticks without text, it will not meet PAS 79. You havent read the standard, or perhaps like so many who criticise these things (read all the stuff about BS 7273) you dont even have a copy.

Kurnall, with respect, even you would not be able to identify all possible variations from BS 5839-1, and recording them does not mean anything unless you have the engineering judgement to know whether they are intentional or indeed matter a whit.  It would also be out of context, unless you recorded all variations from BS 5266 BS 5308 etc etc.

I will probably pass on speaking at your wee bash, Kell not least because I have no idea when it is, and how can you have a case study on use of a template. We have several thousand FRAs that use the template.

Alfred, I am glad you are finding the new PAS 79 helpful.

[Kelsall]

The case study can be on anything of real interest to the audiene with a cutting edge resolution or with a lesson to be learnt. Volunteering will get you the free pass and you can then contribute to the debate when it comes up.

13th November 2012 at Bristol Golf club

Nearly and Kurnal thanks, that's the kind of thing we intend to expand upon during the debate.

Colin ‘without text’ may not meet the requirements of the PAS but believe me they are being issued to clients and submitted as evidence for third party schemes. Companies are being asked to use PAS 79 and they don’t think it’s as good as their own. Therefore it’s beneficial to have a debate amongst professionals about the requirements of good template design. It won’t be a bashing of the PAS but is intended more as a sharing of good practice. I do hope that explains it clearly.

[William 29]

Are they intending to or have done so already the same debate in other locations?  North West would be good.