Application of the RRFSO to Convents

[William 29]

Opinions please on this one which I don’t think is straight forward.  I had an enquiry regarding a charity that owns some Convents.  The Convents are sometimes small houses with 1 or 2 Sisters living there but sometimes they are larger buildings with 9 or 10 Sisters living there.  
The Charity see the "Convent" as their own homes i.e. a private dwelling, or domestic premises and the Sisters live as a family unit but obviously share facilities such as lounge, kitchen etc.  

Some larger Convents also employ staff (e.g. a cook or gardener) so technically are workplaces.

Would you apply the RRFSO in both small and large Convents or would you say the Housing Act applies or neither?  The person that contacted me really wants to know if they need to complete a fire risk assessment and if so under which legislation.  We have done FRAs on convents before but these have been more like large hotels, these are more domestic in style.  I haven’t seen any of the premises or have any details on sizes etc.

Any opinions would be welcome.  

[colin todd]

How do you solve a problem like assessment, how do you hold a moonbeam in your hands.

[nearlythere]

William. I did read something recently about convents and RRO and I  can't remember what the answer was. Can't even remember where I read. Will lubricate grey matter tonight and maybe something might come to mind.

[Owain]

how do you hold a moonbeam in your hands.

with protective gloves and a face visor

[kurnal]

It can be difficult to determine the application of both the legislation and enforcement authority for such premises, on the face of it it looks straightforward in terms of the application of the Fire Safety Order or not, but actually most local authorities have recognised the issues and protocols have been drawn up to determine who will be the lead authority. Heres an example from Birmingham.
(hope it works)
http://www.birmingham.gov.uk/cs/Satellite?blobcol=urldata&blobheader=application%2Fpdf&blobheadername1=Content-Disposition&blobkey=id&blobtable=MungoBlobs&blobwhere=1223429790468&ssbinary=true&blobheadervalue1=attachment%3B+filename%3D86555Joint_Working_Protocol0.pdf

Despite all this one of the biggest hurdles is to convince the Sisters that they are not outside the Law. In my experience they tend to be convinced that the Law does not apply to their special circumstances.  

[William 29]

Thanks kurnal, useful document, although it doesn't really provide me with an answer.  My thoughts are that if the Sisters are living as a family then the spirit of the fire safety order was not intended to be applied in such situations that could be considered the same as a domestic setting.  I don't think they fall under the HMO or hostel definintion and they are not care homes or hotels so it doesn't leave much else!?

[kurnal]

Yes sorry William I had not covered your query in respect of the very small premises.

For the very small premises they are probably  shared houses, are therefore domestic premises and not subject to the Fire Safety Order.
Section 254 and Schedule 14 of the Housing Act exclude from the definition of an HMO any building which is occupied principally for the purposes of a religious community whose principal occupation is prayer, contemplation, education or the relief of suffering.

[William 29]

Many thanks Kurnal, very helpful.

[Mar62]

Yes thanks Kurnal.

[Midland Retty]

It all comes down to the type of premsies. As Kurnal already said if they are living in 'a house' then neither the RRO or Housing Act would apply.

In the large building you mentioned what are the sleeping arrangements? how is the accommodation arranged?

If it is, for example, "traditonal" hostel style accomodation (i.e; shared dorms, shared bathrooms) the RRO would apply.

If it is a building converted to provide self contained accommodation for each occupant (but isn't a converted house) I would argue that again the RRO would apply. Furthermore it would probably fall into two distinct categories:-

a) a conversion which took place in accordance with Building Regs or
b) a conversion not undertaken in accordance with building regs

Eitherway the RRO would apply (and I'd suggest only in the communal areas in case of a conversion done according to building regs)

[William 29]

Thanks MF, some goods points made there.  I don't know any other details than that posted but I think I have enough to get back to the person who made the enquiry, thanks.

[Mike Buckley]

'Section 254 and Schedule 14 of the Housing Act exclude from the definition of an HMO any building which is occupied principally for the purposes of a religious community whose principal occupation is prayer, contemplation, education or the relief of suffering.'

Sounds like the Banter Bar to me, prayer: 'Oh God look who's in here', contemplation: purpose built booths with flushing water, education: 'That'll teach me for coming in here' and the relief of suffering: need I say more? All worship the great god of fire safety with its chief acolyte Colin and its scriptures PAS 79 and the RRO.

Yep! I think we have it covered!

[AnthonyB]

I've found another twist - a convent attached to a Nursing Home, all owned by the same religious body.

The Nursing Home is straightforward, the pre FSO approach to this area on this site seems to have treated the communal areas of the accommodation (corridors, toilets, laundry, dining and living room) as covered by legislation/guidance (Firecode most probably as it was a Convent/Hospital before becoming a Convent/Nursing Home) with fire doors, extinguishers, emergency lights and AFD/call points, but treats the bedrooms as private as they don't have detection or sounders (more likely to achieve the 85dB at the doorway at a push rather than 75dB bed head).

The accommodation is purpose built 1970's with bedrooms (not en-suite) off a central corridor to the first floor and a single bedroom and all the shared areas to ground, with access to the chapel and nursing home at ground and a fire exit through a tank room (!) on the first in addition to it's own exits.

Employed staff from the Nursing Home carry out maintenance, the alarm is one covering both areas.

From this thread it appears that to ignore the bedrooms is the approach although with the layout and doors I'd be wanting the bedrooms to have AFD even if not bedhead sounders (candles!), but the thread suggests I couldn't use the RRO for this, just the 'it's a good idea' line.