New UKAS accredited scheme for Fire Risk Assessors

[William 29]

Your mates certificated you? 

here we go again! ...(yawns)...

[Kelsall]

To be honest William it is a reasonable question.

Only yesterday I spoke with someone who gave me some shocking examples of a professional bodies registration scheme; lack of transparency, preferential treatment and some less than subtle lining of pockets through related training.

I would hate to see independent accredited 3rd party certification getting tarred with the same brush.

[William 29]

 

To be honest William it is a reasonable question.

Only yesterday I spoke with someone who gave me some shocking examples of a professional bodies registration scheme; lack of transparency, preferential treatment and some less than subtle lining of pockets through related training.

I would hate to see independent accredited 3rd party certification getting tarred with the same brush.

  yawns again

[Kelsall]

No problem William you could alway not read my posts 

[William 29]

No problem William you could alway not read my posts 

Just stick to the subject matter, when you are constructive it's worth reading.  When you and Colin are points scoring it's not.

[Kelsall]

Perhaps...but if I don't tell Colin when he is being an arse; who will?

[Kelsall]

http://www.shponline.co.uk/features-content/full/oshcr-register-of-interest

This may give us a clue where accredited certification may take us. 2 years on from the H and S national register, it doesn't look good and at one point the article suggest the very element the register was designed to remove are picking up more work as a result of offering cheaper services.

I can't see how fire won't go the same way unless money is invested in to the education of the duty holder. Possibly the weak approach to this by DCLG will perpetuate the current status quo. The regional assemblies may be the key to some improvement as they are willing to advise and legislate on fire safety matters.

‘Industry, heal thy self’ doesn’t appear to have worked here it seems. Perhaps the third party certification route may be a better option as it focuses on the can do element; but work is required by government as well as industry to make competence the norm and not an added expense to the duty holder.

Will is that better?

[Tom W]

I don't think anyone is listening any more

[Kelsall]

 Too bad! It is very relevant and quite original thinking to draw the two together as a possible lesson the fire industry could learn from H and S; especially as enforcement of the RRO is heading the same way as H and S enforcement. Still original thinking isn't something that people could accuse you of, eh Piggy? 

[AnthonyB]

Plus it's not too hard to get on the OSCHR either which unlike the rigours of a BAFE examination does little more than check you are with the professional body you say you are, nothing about doing the job.

Whilst the BAFE scheme has many good points (we are going through it this year) it's predecessors in the fire alarm and extinguisher front have not stopped every man and their uncle doing work in that field, making a nice few £££, whilst doing shocking work. Because it doesn't stop the cowboys quite a few decent firms don't go down this route because the overheads aren't worth it as the passed on cost just means the undercutting short-cutters get more work.

Educating the client is the key and whilst everyone in the industry knows about schemes and registers, you don't get your work from the industry!

[Tom W]

Too bad! It is very relevant and quite original thinking to draw the two together as a possible lesson the fire industry could learn from H and S; especially as enforcement of the RRO is heading the same way as H and S enforcement. Still original thinking isn't something that people could accuse you of, eh Piggy? 

Thats why people aren't listening to you, you cannot help but be argumentative and aggressive in your sales tatic to us all.

[Kelsall]

Piggy I put a link to something in this thread which is definitely worth reading and I made some comments about where I think we could learn from this register and what those running it and those on it have learnt.

There are sections in this well written article on; marketing of the register, its limitations, what problems are still out there. The article goes on to look at what issues haven't been addressed by this national register.  The parallel with Bafe SP 205 and fire risk assessor certification is well worth looking at; influencers in the fire industry should try to learn from what the H and S sector are saying about the solution they opted for, thus trying to avoid some of the same mistakes. I am sure that those who have paid money for certification want to know they haven’t invested in a white elephant.

Piggy you put in a dig at me in this thread so stop bleating when I respond to your dig.

If you are not listening then start reading; try the article I sign posted and perhaps contribute to a legitimate discussion on the forum.

[kurnal]

Educating the client is the key and whilst everyone in the industry knows about schemes and registers, you don't get your work from the industry!

Thats exactly the biggest issue. It is essential to create a demand for TPC through information and education of the end users if it is going to work.

[Kelsall]

Educating the client is the key and whilst everyone in the industry knows about schemes and registers, you don't get your work from the industry!

Thats exactly the biggest issue. It is essential to create a demand for TPC through information and education of the end users if it is going to work.

Exactly and that takes time and money to do. DCLG won’t do it for the fire industry that is a given.

The professional bodies for H and S have all tried and they aren’t small outfits, plus they talk to the right kind of people when promoting it ‘Duty Holders’ FMs, internal H and S managers.

I believe the work has now just started and two years down the line it would be sad if those who have invested time and money to demonstrate a level of competence are saying the same thing as the H and S guys.

Will price always triumph over substance? In this climate yes I believe it will. Hence government needs to do more. Colin mentioned in a meeting the other day that NI care homes are going to be required to use third party certificated fire risk assessors to complete a fire risk assessment; which will be required for their license. It is a start and one that the other regional assemblies may well follow. But not this government, they are planning to reduce enforcement and legislation. Until the next multi fatality fire death and then they will waste millions on an enquiry and a report and a consultation and a guidance document and so on and so on.

[colin todd]

Yes, Kelsall, we did receive certification from a CB I know and trust. Will YOUR mates, in the consultancy arm of your organisation now be seeking certification from MY mates, I wonder, given that 15% of the people on YOUR  register of fire risk assessors appear to work for a consultancy that is part of the same group as the body that certificated them. I would respectfully suggest that the proximity between our consulting practice and the CB we chose to use is much much less than the potential proximity between the CB you constantly promote on these boards and the consulting practice for which 15% of your registrants work.

The only difference between us is that this is something that has  been obvious for a long time, but I chose not to be so unprofessional as to suggest anything improper about it, nor do I do so now.  But perhaps you should check your own house, before you make scurrilous inuendos about the houses of others.

Ps your report of what I said at a recent meeting is inaccurate, but accuracy is not your strong point.