new UKAS-accredited certification scheme for Fire Risk Assessors

[GeoffR]

Dear Firenet members
You will all be aware of the ever-increasing interest in fire risk assessment. SSAIB is pleased to announce the immediate launch of the SSAIB BAFE SP205 UKAS-accredited certification scheme for firms or individuals offering fire risk assessment services. Achievement of this certification will entitle the holder to display the SSAIB/UKAS certification mark (including the “crown and tick” logo).

SSAIB is an independent, not-for-profit certification body, supervised by the United Kingdom Accreditation Service (UKAS).

If you would like further information, please contact SSAIB via its website www.ssaib.org/contact/ or telephone 0191 296 3242
Kind regards
Geoff Rendall
Certification Manager
SSAIB

[colin todd]

Old Kelsall must be very pleased. He is always saying you need UKAS accredited schemes. It is so nice to see my good friend Geoffrey actually coming up with the goods.

[kurnal]

Welcome to the new players in the field and I understand the ECA are hot on the heels of the SSAIB and the NSI and are likely to launch their scheme imminently. From 1 to 4 players in the field  in one fell swoop.

Is it sustainable? Can all 4 survive in what is a limited market and if they dont what will happen to those companies who back the wrong horse?

From speaking to people it would seem that achieving UKAS accreditation is very expensive and their daily rates are very significant- who accredits and audits UKAS?
 

[colin todd]

Kurnal:

Yes it is sustainable. This is going to be the largest fire scheme ever eventually.  Even if a CB had very few takers, it would not drop the scheme, so I think that the wrong horse question is a non question.

UKAS are recognized by Government as the UK national accreditation body, and there can only be one such body. I believe that their overseas equivalents can audit them as a peer review., but you would need to ask UKAS about the details of that.

[patb]

Hello Kernal

Just thought I would reinforce Colin's point that NSI would maintain a scheme with a limited number of certificated organizations. However, it will not be the case with regard to BAFE SP205 for Life Safety Fire Risk Assessment because of the keen interest and activity already underway.

Today NSI certificated three fire safety organizations to the BAFE Scheme SP205 that have completed their initial certification assessments. There are more organizations undertaking assessment and they are part way through the initial process. The initial interest in the NSI/BAFE Scheme has been strong and NSI expects additional interest to be shown when the UKAS Accreditation of NSI and SSAIB reaches a wider audience.

For those Fire Net Members and Observers who would like more information regarding the NSI/BAFE SP205 FRA Scheme then please contact directly the NSI Scheme Managers;

                                John Davidson ..................... john.davidson@nsi.org.uk ...................... Mob 07917 630086
                                Pat Baldwin ......................... pat.baldwin@nsi.org.uk ......................... Mob 07771 956071

[kurnal]

I will be seeking proposals from each of the certification bodies  FRACS, SSAIB, NSI and as soon as their scheme is announced the ECA. I wish to be one of the first companies to achieve accreditation under FRACS or under SP205.

One aspect that concerns me is this. How can I be sure that the person who comes to assess my company has full competence to understand and appreciate the technical aspects of fire risk assessment? As far as I am aware the UKAS accreditation that each provider must achieve is essentially a systems and quality management audit but cannot measure the CBs technical understanding of the subject.

It has taken me 39 years in the industry with continuing study and research to achieve my current level of incompetence.

How can I be sure that the SP205 assessor will have sufficient experience and knowledge to understand the issues rather than hugging the codes?

I guess it comes down to this.
Are the SP205 assessors experienced fire risk assessors who have been trained in audit or are they auditors who have been trained in fire risk assessment?

And are all SP205 Certification Bodies the same in this respect?

[kurnal]

Kurnal:

UKAS are recognized by Government as the UK national accreditation body, and there can only be one such body. I believe that their overseas equivalents can audit them as a peer review., but you would need to ask UKAS about the details of that.

Why can we only have one accreditation body? Sounds like a case to refer to the monopolies commision.    Come to that why is there only one.....

On looking into the UKAS fees and daily rates it appears that some competition may be healthy!  

[Golden]

Hi Kurnal, I was a guinea pig for one of the CBs above and hope to receive my accreditation certificate when the CB in question imminently gets its UKAS accreditation. My assessor was a well qualified and practising fire risk assessor with a FS degree background so his background was in technical fire safety, his assessor from UKAS on the day was accompanied by someone senior in the FPA so the 'sector competence' aspects of the process were very well covered and there were quite a few technical questions as well during the site visits to recent FRAs. I have confidence in the process that I experienced and would hope that this rigorous approach will be replicated with all who apply to give the scheme some long term credibility. I can assure you that the sites visited had a few issues that were not code compliant however the case I put forward was discussed and there were no problems - damn those brass hinges  

The systems and quality audit was quite painful thorough - but to be honest has helped my company realise a few (minor) quality management issues that needed addressing and I'm better for the experience. Now awaiting my accreditation certificate so that I can convince any prospective customers that its the 'mutts nuts' of accreditation company certification schemes and they shouldn't employ anyone without one .

Still waiting for my IFE application to come through after six months!

Edit due to incorrect use of terminology (again) and admonishment below and thankfully after 5 minutes of training I'm also now competent in the use of the words 'certificate' and 'accreditation' - its so amazing what a short focused course can achieve!

[colin todd]

Big Al, as is often your downfall, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.  It is rubbish to say that UKAS audits are only about QMS and this is a daft statement you may wish to withdraw. If it were, why would they have taken an industry sector guy to audit Platinum when he got his assessment from the CB. I am sure that the sector expert knows as much about QMS as you do, so why would a UKAS auditor who knows as much as there is to know about QMS take someone with them. DUH!!!!!!Much as like you, Al, you do talk some complete tosh sometimes, thereby spreading total misinformation.

[kurnal]

Only asking questions Colin - and probably similar questions that are in the mind of many others who are looking to embark on this process and dont have the benefit of your insight.
No I dont see the need to withdraw my question sorry if  it makes you angry but  you could always educate us rather than just giving out a rollicking whenever someone happens to put their head over the battlements and ask. Not that I mind a rollicking as I am no stranger to them but an explanation as well really makes it all worthwhile.

My dear Colin I sometimes think you are so used to operating  at such a high level in the ether you have completely forgotten what its like for us at grond level.

[colin todd]

Big Al, I have no problem with you asking questions because, God knows, you need education, and I always do my best to see that you get it. I did not even ask you to withdraw the question, though why you need to ask it here when I gave you the answer at a meeting several months ago when you asked exactly the same question I do not know- I suppose the nice thing about Altzheimers is that you never see repeats on TV and you are always meeting new people.

I suggested that you withdraw the misinformation that UKAS audits only address QMS. This was because your so called understanding was a total and complete misunderstanding of what UKAS does, but you talk so pompously that people are apt to believe you know what you are talking about and will go off and repeat the same misinformation.

I know you mean well, Big Al, and accordingly, if you have any more questions, however daft they are, I, and I am sure people from the CBs here, will be pleased to try tp help you in your time of confusion.

Lots of luv, etc. Your very good friend.

[kurnal]

Thanks Colin.

I am aware that UKAS when assessing the CBs have taken along an industry expert with them from the FPA as their fire industry adviser. It all seems to me like a chicken and egg situation-though that is inevitable. 

UKAS had to start somewhere so in assessing the proposed CBs for their competence in assessing risk assessment companies they had no choice but to select a non accredited industry expert in order to act as their adviser to start the ball rolling and set a benchmark standard. They could have chosen one of many. (In their shoes I probably would have asked an existing UKAS accredited CB such as Warrington or perhaps a fire consultant from the Surrey area ).

Anyway I do know that at least  one of the prosepective CBs has appointed competent fire risk assessors and trained them as auditors whereas others have appointed competent auditors and trained them in fire risk assessment. I really am curious to know if there is any effective difference betweenthe two approaches.

Sorry if this remains a stupid question.

[colin todd]

Al, you are all confused again. You are rabbiting on about non-accredited.  A-C-C-R-E-D-I-T-AT-I-O-N, BIG< AL, refers to recognition of a CB by the Government recognised national accreditation body. Thats UKAS, Al.  UKAS-are you following?   The term accredited is vitually protected by Government in this respect , so try to use it correctly. They dont accredit industry sector experts (well, not for the purpose of this discussion), they ACCREDIT CBs. So, they wont take along a company that is certificated if thats what you mean, nor a rival CB to accredit a CB (which is total cloud cuckoo land). They would possibly take along a technical expert (to use their terminology), to deal with the industry specific technical issues. It would seem from Plantinum that they took someone from the Family Planning Association, who is probably on one of the registers as a competent fire risk assessor himself, to check that the CB assessors are also competent in fire risk assessment.

Is this getting any clearer for you, Al. If not, just pay your money like a good chap and get your COMPANY certificated, thats CERTIFICATED, Al , not ACCREDITED. But you cant be the first as you hope, as Patrick has just told you 3 people are already being certificated.

[kurnal]

Dont want to be the first. But will be up there with the front runners once I have seen what each has to offer.

As for accreditation and certification ok. Sorry.

 In mitigation its easy to get confused with terminology when I  have a certificate from the IFSM that says I am already an accredited fire risk assessor  but as you say my company can only be certificated. Too complicated for my simple brain.  Roger. Over and out. 
Must I go to bed without supper tonight?

[William 29]

We are due to go through the BAFE SP205 Company certification process with NSI over the next few weeks.  Kurnal, I don't mind sharing the experience with you and others if it helps in clarifying anything?  Watch this space.........