Author Topic: Ohh no not again - green box's  (Read 24882 times)

Offline Argyle

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Ohh no not again - green box's
« on: December 06, 2012, 01:43:25 PM »
I know what everyone will say -but once and for-all can someone clarify for me - if I have for example an office block with doors on the escape route fitted with electromagmentic locks . if the lock is fitted to unlock on the fire alarm, unlock on power failure , has a push button on the escape side for general use ie to unlock the door do I still need the green box ( single action / double pole) . Yes on No answers please.

Offline Wiz

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Re: Ohh no not again - green box's
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2012, 01:49:33 PM »
YES, if following the recommendations of BS7273-4.

Offline William 29

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Re: Ohh no not again - green box's
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2012, 03:29:47 PM »
But no if you apply a common sense assessment approach  ;) what is the likelyhood of the door not opening and why would it not?

Offline AnthonyB

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Re: Ohh no not again - green box's
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2012, 08:20:49 PM »
Also yes if wishing to comply with Approved Document B.

The DCLG guides are a bit more woolly - they mention all three but the way they state them you could interpret it as being you only need one or more fail-safes as oppose to all three.

If you can justify why you don't need green break glasses  then so be it, but usually this is when the risk of having them outweighs the risk from not (secure accommodation & similar). Just because the installer forgot or couldn't be bothered, or they ruin the decor (reasons encountered in the past) wouldn't cut it.
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Offline Wiz

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Re: Ohh no not again - green box's
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2012, 09:18:01 AM »
..... what is the likelyhood of the door not opening and why would it not?

Failure of the power supply or a fail-safe electromagnetic release, in such a way that the door is unable to be used to escape, is unlikely. Or, at least, in any way that the inclusion of an EDR switch (green box) would have any benefit.

The Request-To-Exit switch can be a real problem. If it is wired as a simple push-to-break switch directly to the power energising the lock, then you have the likelihood of the switch itself failing in some way affecting the door lock releasing. I don't believe there is any minimum manufacturing quality standard for a RTE switch. If it is wired, instead, to some other door control equipment (such as keypad and/or proximity reader type control) it may NOT be wired in a fail-safe manner. (it all depends on the particular set-up of the 'other door control equipment' wiring needs). Even if it is wired as a simple push-to-break switch then really it should be wired to break both power feed legs (like an EDR switch and for the same reasons) and, it might be argued, that a simple unobtrusive RTE switch may not be easily identifiable in a panic situation.

The link to the fire alarm to release the door is fraught with potential problems. BS7273-4 has tried to address these and has created a plethora of recommendations which are difficult to understand and, in my opinion, creating a cost implication that far outweighs the benefits when an EDR is correctly installed.

The green-box EDR is, in my opinion, much more important than a link to the fire alarm system, which can be difficult or expensive to achieve correctly.

In my opinion, not only should correctly installed green box EDRs always be used, they should maybe be made mechanically more reliable (if possible) and easier to identify as to their purpose in an emergency. They are probably the most important piece of equipment in the whole electromagnetic door release set-up.

Offline Argyle

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Re: Ohh no not again - green box's
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2012, 10:41:36 AM »
Gents

thanks for you replies - what I expected really -just wanted some reassurance. On the point of the RTE switch . I have a large set of gates to the front of my house . With an electromagnetic lock. Sereral months ago now ( on a wet an windy day) when I got home from work my wife was not a happy bunny in that when she left to go to work in the morning ( I had already gone by then ) she went to the gate pushed the button and nothing , she was not to pleased to climb over a 7 foot gate in higheels and skirt to the mirth of passers-by. To compound the problem she had to do the reverse on getting back home. Luckly we did have a green box fitted with all of the other electronic for the gate under the stairs - she was obviously not listening when i told her about it two years previous. So they do fail .

Offline Fishy

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Re: Ohh no not again - green box's
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2012, 12:43:37 PM »
...So they do fail .

...wives or RTE switches?

Offline Bruce89

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Re: Ohh no not again - green box's
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2012, 10:27:59 AM »
Forgive the ignorance Wiz but been out the loop for a while, EDR abbreviation for?

Offline Paul2886

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Re: Ohh no not again - green box's
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2012, 04:19:08 PM »
Emergency Door Release

Offline jokar

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Re: Ohh no not again - green box's
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2012, 11:17:03 AM »
All I need to say is "New Look" Oxford Street.

Offline Tom Sutton

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Re: Ohh no not again - green box's
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2012, 03:35:05 PM »
For more info on new look regarding green boxes check out http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Crim/2010/1268.html item 16
All my responses only apply to England and Wales and they are an overview of the subject, hopefully it will point you in the right direction and always treat with caution.

Offline William 29

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Re: Ohh no not again - green box's
« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2012, 09:42:20 PM »
All I need to say is "New Look" Oxford Street.

Does it state that green box overides should have been provided?? (item 16)

Offline jokar

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Re: Ohh no not again - green box's
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2012, 12:19:18 PM »
No, but New Look is now case law and barristers will draw judgements from the details and will utilise BS's as the standard.  Therefore, the 3 parts of BS 7273-4 will always apply.

Offline Argyle

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Re: Ohh no not again - green box's
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2012, 04:24:18 PM »
Jokar - so as to be clear can you specifiy the 3 parts . I would quote 8.2 and 12.2
« Last Edit: December 12, 2012, 08:41:13 AM by Argyle »

Offline Clevelandfire 3

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Re: Ohh no not again - green box's
« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2012, 07:26:12 PM »
No, but New Look is now case law and barristers will draw judgements from the details and will utilise BS's as the standard.  Therefore, the 3 parts of BS 7273-4 will always apply.

"always apply" cant say they will always apply. unlikely they wouldnt but to say always is not strictly true.