BA Guidelines and associated procedure's

[Lee999]

I think it would be fair to say - We in the British Fire Service dont appear to like guidelines much -

Do we need them?

How do Brigades in other countries search large, complicated smoke logged structures?

mmm

[warrant1]

I too in my country were thought to use guideline. However in my 39 years of firefighting,not even once we use them. To me there is no strict rules as to use or nt to use the guidelines as a means of moving in smoke log situation. To me what i did was to crawl or stay low. This is basic as we all firefighters know, heat air rises and  these excess contaminated air will escape throug the natural ventilation. That is why the air at the base is more better and we get better visibility, thus making it easier to locate the site of the fire

[Mike Buckley]

We need guidelines in the same way we need seatbelts in cars. We don't want to use them but there are times when we can't do without them.

Remember guidelines were brought in because a number of our colleagues died when they got lost in smoke. Look for the Smithfield Market Fire and the RAF control complex in Norfolk (RAF Raynham I think).

How do Brigades in other countries search large complex smoke logged buildings? Being cynical, they sacrifice firefighters!

[Tom Sutton]

the RAF control complex in Norfolk (RAF Raynham I think).

It was Neatshead, Norfolk Try http://www.fire.org.uk/ba/1966.htm for more info

[toby14483]

I know of 1 job where a BA guideline was used....

It got burned through and so was useless.

[toidi]

How did the BA team get out if the fire was burning behind them?
I thought that 1 of the first rules of BA is to make sure you put the fire out before you pass it- it was when I was in the job?

[Andy Cole]

This is a topic which if you look through some of the posts you will see has been discussed at great length on this forum, there are many different views all with their individual justifications.

My personal view is that it is an outdated piece of equipment that has little use in a modern day fire and rescue service and frankly should be removed from all front line appliances!!

[Fireguy1230]

Are there any alternatives that have been designed or evaluated?

 Les

[Andy Cole]

Why would you be entering the risk area unless there was a life risk? If this was the case preparing and laying GL's would be too time consuming, if you are going in you would NEVER do so without a firefighting medium such as a HRJ in which case you could use this to re trace your steps on the way back out!!

[toidi]

Andy
 How times have changed!
When I was in the job I thought that crews would take a high  level of risk to save saveable lives.
They would take less of a risk to save saveable property.
They would take no risk to save life or property that is already lost.
You asking why would you go into the risk area unless there is a life risk proves that you fight fires differently than when I used to go into buildings.

At least I know why I read of buildings burning down nowadays that we would have put out 10 years ago.

Sounds like this dynamic risk assessment stuff is an excuse for people who don't know how to put out fires any more, fighting them from the outside!

Maybe buildings are also different now, but in my time buildings were built to be wind and watertight-so pouring water onto it from the outside is just like heavy rain!

PS
I remember only once in my career searching off a guideline which was really difficult!

Can you search off a hosereel?

[Andy Cole]

I've had this discussion so many times that I'm not getting into it again!!, have a look at the post titled 'Guidelines' on here you'll find it's a bunch of us having the same argument that I can see this post turning into!!

Toidi,
Your risk assesment sounds similar to the one I would adopt now! there is no doubt in my mind that the fire service is different now to how it was 10 years ago, however I believe our fundamental role is to save life and property!, as far as I am aware this hasn't changed, for you to imply that we now let buildings burn down because we don't know how to put them out or we are making excuses not to put them out is, in my opinon,unnessercary and insulting!
I have always embraced the views of others on this forum and made a point of paying particular attention to those of you who have many years of valuable experience and knowledge who are prepared to impart some of it on us relatively inexperienced members, I'm pleased to say that on the whole they've been very receptive and given me the oppurtunity to see many different approachs to situations meaning that dare I say it my own knowledge may have increased improving my own firefighting!! I hope that you will be the same and offer useful, suggestive and informative posts in the future!

[toidi]

Andy

how can you say our risk assessments are similar and at the same time question why you would enter a building if there is no life risk!
you would do it to save saveable property- so I don't understand why you imply that you wouldn't do it unless there is a life risk!
The fire service is now carrying out more defensive firefighting than it was 10 years ago- this is a fact which could be backed up by most people on this site!
I do think that a lack of operational knowledge is a reason for incident commanders going defensive and this opinion is shared by a lot of friends who are still in the job.
If you find this opinion unnecessary and insulting- I really do not know what to say other than it is probably the opinion of a great deal of experienced fire service personnel who can't all be wrong.

As for you asking me to offer useful suggestive and informative posts in the future- I think it would be useful and informative if you did not contradict yourself with your risk assessment opinions- that's my suggestion!

[Kaiser]

Why would you be entering the risk area unless there was a life risk? If this was the case preparing and laying GL's would be too time consuming, if you are going in you would NEVER do so without a firefighting medium such as a HRJ in which case you could use this to re trace your steps on the way back out!!

Guide lines aren't only used for searching, they are also used to trace your way to crews who are working some distance away from an ECP and back out again. With regards to the comment about re tracing your steps along a firefighting medium, I've been in loads of jobs where at some point, the hose reel or hose has been a big pile of crap in one particular area and the confusion this has caused has been horrific.  Guidelines are crap for searchin for casualties in a hurry, I agree, but they do have their uses too, especially when a short time laying a guide line well can prevent major escalation of an incident.

I know guide lines can be a pain in the backside, but sometimes they do have an advantage.

[Mike Buckley]

If you get a chance look at the report on RAF Neatishead. One of the reasons given why the men lost their lives was that they were trying to follow the firefighting medium back and got lost.

I agree that most firefighters will never use a guideline in anger, I never had to in my service and I'm glad I never had to. However I trained with them and I trained my crews with them, so if the need ever arose we could use them. I suspect every brigade has at least one premise where they would be needed to get to the seat of a fire. Even then remember the reinforcing situation where although it may not be on your patch you may still get called into it.

At the end of the day you may hate them but ignoring the problem will not make it go away.

Consider how the men at Neatishead died. They got into a room with a flush door and the handle at a odd height and they went round and round the room trying to find the exit until they ran out of air. The investigator knew that by the handprints on the walls.

[Big A]

The Gillender Street incident where two firefighters died in 1991 shows that following guidelines to retrace your steps is not infallible either.