NEW GUIDE FOR PUBLIC SHOWING SOURCES OF COMPETENT FIRE RISK ASSESSORS

[colin todd]

At long last, and after much political infighting by some with their own agendas, the Fire Risk Assessment Competency Council has published a guide for the RP and Dutyholders on where they can find competent fire risk assessors.

A critical aspect of this guidance is that the FRACC recommend the use of COMPANIES that are 3rd party certificated by UKAS accredited certification bodies (i.e. not just persons who are certificated as competent persons). This is because company certification includes not just use of competent persons but a quality management system in the company. This is also the policy of the Fire Industry Association.

The key quotation is outlined below:


The Fire Risk Assessment Competency Council recommends the use of fire risk assessment companies, including sole traders, which are third party certificated to appropriate schemes operated by Certification Bodies which have been UKAS accredited to certificate against such schemes.

The guide lists all sources of comeptent persons and of course competent COMPANIES.  The only source of competent companies listed in the guide is the BAFE SP 205 scheme, which is available from the three certification boides, NSI, SSAIB and ECA Certification, all three of whom are doing a sterling job to raise standards in our profession.

The Guide will be hosted on the Fire Sector Federation website, but can be downloaded from the website of any stakeholder (or anyone else) who puts it on their website.

Thus, it can be found at:

http://www.fia.uk.com/en/info/document_summary.cfm/docid/E6479C4F-E267-4DD4-8B55A6930C685F13

and

http://www.bafe.org.uk/uploads/DOC510BF23245044.doc

[William 29]

Good news! At last....... glad we opted for BAFE SP205 and not FRACS now ;-)

[colin todd]

Sometimes, Willie, even ex firemen make wise decisions. I bet Old Kurnawhatisnameski will be jumping on the bandwagon now.

[William 29]

  

[colin todd]

I should think old kelsall will be pretty orgasmic about this new publication too, as he has always maintained that only UKAS accredited certification means anything.  He will be delighted to see that this is reflected in the recommendations of the competency council and that the BAFE scheme is the only one at the present time to which people can look in that respect.

[jokar]

So then you are only competent if you belong to one of these schemes.  That is not and never will be the case.  3rd party accreditation can assist a decision making process whatever and whoever is behind it but there are many tradepersons who are able to undertake their work with due diligence and professionalism without such pieces of paper.

[Mike Buckley]

Whilst I agree with Jokar on the grounds that although a raven is a black bird, it does not follow that any black bird is a raven.

However the problem is there are many good assessors out there but ther are also a lot who are rubbish, how is the average responsible person able to destinguish between the two. Especially as the only criteria he has at the moment is price.

[wee brian]

Its not compulsory - so the market will decide.

Enforcers could help by treating prems that have an FRA done by a registered assesor as lower risk.

[William 29]

I don’t see why we should be any different to any other industry out there?? 3rd party certification is nothing new, granted ours is not compulsory and to a point time will tell as to how the market goes.  Personally it’s not just about ticking a box and stating we are certificated under this scheme or that, it’s about providing a quality service and document for what we do at a reasonable fee.  Have I increased our FRA rates since becoming BAFE SP205 certificated?……..no. What it does though is give responsible persons the option whether to choose a non certificated company/individual or not based on the fee quoted.

Agreed there are many competent persons/companies out there that are not certificated but I feel there are more that are not, based on what I see.  I see FRAs and get CV’s on a regular basis from ex fire safety officers with MIFireE, MIFSM and even fire engineering degrees but their 30 years in the fire service has been spent riding a big red truck, with little or no fire safety inspection experience (apart from the little they did operationally) they have not attended any specific fire safety courses but then set themselves up as fire risk assessors charging rock bottom fees. I hope the competency schemes weed this out in time.
 
I also have to question that if you deem to be a competent company/individual then why not apply for FRACS or BAFE SP205?  I can’t speak for FRACS but the SP205 process is not just about individual assessors, it also looks at the sole trader/company quality management system, documentation, CPD records, complaints procedures, FRA templates, access to current fire safety guidance etc. etc.

[Midland Retty]

Ive always said that unless a certification scheme is UKAS accredited it means nothing.(See my previous posts on similar threads)  

I could set up my own scheme - lets call it "Midland Mayhem's Fire Risk Assessor Certification Scheme" or something more glamourous or important sounding and claim to be a third party accreditor.

I could then get all my mates to join it and they could proclaim themselves to be "third party accredited" which is cuckoo!

So I very much welcome this news

[Tom W]

Ive always said that unless a certification scheme is UKAS accredited it means nothing.(See my previous posts on similar threads) 

I could set up my own scheme - lets call it "Midland Mayhem's Fire Risk Assessor Certification Scheme" or something more glamourous or important sounding and claim to be a third party accreditor.

I could then get all my mates to join it and they could proclaim themselves to be "third party accredited" which is cuckoo!

So I very much welcome this news

I like the sound of this scheme, where do I sign? Do I get a logo when I've passed?

[Midland Retty]

I like the sound of this scheme, where do I sign? Do I get a logo when I've passed?

Just sign here Piglet old fellow, and yes you get a very official looking logo to adorn your letterheads and vehicles etc.... and what this about "passing"? You don't have to pass any exam or entrance test matey just chuck me £150 and you're in seeing as youre an old Firenet chum!     

[Tom W]

Well that was painless

Kind Regards

Piglet MMfireA

*Approved Risk Assessor

[Kelsall]

Thankfully FRACC doesn’t stand for Fire Risk Assessor Colin’s Council

He seems to be setting policy for BIS these days. Competent person’s schemes offered by accredited certification bodies comply fully with the UK policy on conformity assessment. Those with certification are assessed against the competence criteria, which sets the technical level for UK and Republic of Ireland fire risk assessors; exactly what they need to 'conform' to. In what world is that not an appropriate scheme?

What is the fundamental quality assurance requirement for any technical document before it is given to the client? Would it be a peer review by any chance! And can a sole trader carry out a peer review? NO!  Therefore a technical reference which assures the end user of the person’s technical knowledge and ability to deliver an accurate fire risk assessment is actually what is required. Many other sectors use competent persons schemes as support for due diligence and as I have mentioned to the FIA many times. They are forcing peoples hand and sending them down an expensive quality assurance route that offers no real value to the sole trader or his client. Quality assurance is all about repeatability and having the steps in place to make sure the product is accurate no matter who completes it. That need for repeatability is magnified with additional employees and therefore the quality procedures become more essential. Don’t get me wrong quality assurance is important but I don’t believe sole traders will benefit from putting in checks and balances on themselves for the sake of a quality assurance audit; when the technical accuracy of their reports is what it would be under a competent person’s scheme. However when there are multiple employees those checks and balances add value to the company and ensure the repeatability which may be lost by use of different employees.

The real and very clear danger here is that sole traders will not go for any certification, keep working from their kitchen table, and be so competitive that the certificated firms lose out over and over again to their substantially lower rates. This is the parallel from the OSHCR register I have already mentioned. The aim here is to marginalise the poor assessor not give them an advantage. So short sighted of the industry; another classic ‘big player’ mentality that the FIA have been criticized for before, by their own membership. Actually Colin you may want to check what your colleagues are doing at the FIA re training followed by competence certification; if as you suggest a competent persons scheme isn’t suitable they are probably barking up the wrong tree. Perhaps you better do it for them so they can get it right! 

All company schemes will be listed when the CB operating them achieves scope extension to their 45011 accreditation. IFCC will be next and possibly the best will be last. Certification is only half the story and unfortunately the hard work will start now and it will be nice to have some other CBs working to improve standards.

[colin todd]

35 stakeholders or so, including you, Kelsall, representing your CB, sat through meetings at which everyone bought into the FRACC guidance that I reproduced above advocating COMPANY certification, including for sole traders, many of whom, are by the way, going for the BAFE scheme, which provides them with a route to peer review. This included all the professional bodies that have PERSON registers.

Not quite sure why you are ranting about it now, unless of course the guidance does not suit you. Nor do I understand the FIA training references. For avoidance of doubt, the FIA are in a position to support members, including many sole traders, in their goal of achieving tpc.