Inner room condition

[nearlythere]

A room from which escape, is possible only by passing through an access room

Thanks Piglet.
Think we all know that. Was looking for something much more legal like.

Wot with fancy words and wot not?

Im not sure what more you need, its not a difficult definition. Write as many words as you want but it will still come back to the same statement.  

We all know Piglet that it is not a difficult definition. But there are others who, one would expect to be on the same wave length as us, seem to have difficulty with the principle.  

[nearlythere]

I can see where you are coming from.
To me it seems BC are trying to suggest the "hall" part of the open space is the access room, which is ludicrous. Is that your interpretation NT?

Yes that view did come up in my discussions with the BC type. Not from me I might add.
I might add that this BC type seems to be the only person in the entire world and it's universe who thinks this. I have spoken to other BC ers who can't quite grasp this new concept of an "inner space" condition.

[nearlythere]

It might be useful to refer to the oldest guidance that identified inner rooms as an issue. Usually the earliest guidance introduced new measures with a commentary, which is dropped once we take the provision for granted.

There is no mention of inner rooms as a concept  in the post war building studies, so I guess it must have first come in as a term with one version of the  CP3 chapter 4 series.  So the definition is one thing, its application in dwellings quite another.

In respect of dwelling houses, the pre 1991 mandatory rules only concerned themselves with houses of 3 storeys and the first CP3 chapter 4 part 1 for flats in blocks over 80ft did not mention inner rooms but recommended that in flats with a single exit all rooms should open off a hallway so this guidance is not really relevant to your situation.

There I go making it complicated Dotty will have a field day with me later.

Have you had a look at determinations on the planning portal website to see if there is anything similar?

Wilco K. And thanks to all for shaking their heads in disbelief in time with mine. But keep the views coming.

[nearlythere]

Architect is pushing this to appeal in near future so it will be interesting how it pans out and how this inner space condition is explained at Divisional level.

And I'm off to Scotland shortly for couple of weeks so can anyone tell me if Dottys car is still fitted with the location finder/warning device.I don't think he has quite got over me describing his favourite Scottish wine as a Glen flavoured with a lump of turf on a cocktail stick. Don't want to bump in to him. He might make me drink some.

[Midland Retty]

I understand that the rooms on the upper level accessed by the staircase are inner rooms.

I cannot see how the open plan room can partly be an access and inner room all at the same time.

NT I wouldn't worry about the legalese. The definition of an inner room is explicit enough because if you use it in conjunction with the definition of a room there is no doubt that an open space cannot be both an access and inner room "of itself" at the same time.

If you think about it that is exactly why lowering a partition below the ceiling by 500mm eliviates an inner room condition.

Go on holiday, dont worry about it, if the BC officer thinks he can twist the laws of physics and have a multidimensional inner / access room which co-exists simultaneously in the same room for the same room then good luck to them.Oh and do try and avoid Dotty!

[nearlythere]

I understand that the rooms on the upper level accessed by the staircase are inner rooms.

Yes but they all have the neccessary size of openable windows for rescue/escape. And in which case the open plan design of the ground floor being an access room incorporating a kitchen is acceptable.

Is Dotty still driving a Daimler?

[Phoenix]

I do understand how one single space could technically be conceived to be two rooms, an access room and an inner room.  Say, for example, there is only one way out of this space and the living area is at the far end and the dining area is at the escape end.  Also, perhaps, the kitchen is in an alcove off the dining area.  To leave the living area or the kitchen you have to pass through the dining area. 

But living areas and dining areas and kitchens are all allowed to be inner rooms provided that the occupants have a clear unobstructed view across the access room to the exit from that space and provided that travel distances are met.  If the space in question has satisfactory visibility and travel distances then it doesn't matter if it is deemed to be access and inner rooms or if it is deemed to be a single room.  Either way it complies with guidance.

As an aside, on the issue of inner rooms, I dealt with a pub recently where a small back 'room' was accessed from the front bar but there was a good 2m wide archway between the two 'rooms' and no door.  In effect, it was all one space. The travel distance from the back of the back area was within limits but the visibility over the escape route from the rear was poor.  The only way out from the back area was through the front bar.  Even though it was all one space I considered that the people in the back area were vulnerable if a fire started in the front bar with no one there to raise the alarm so I got some smoke detection put in, in the front bar, as if the back area was an inner room.  So it doesn't really matter what you call these spaces or rooms, 'inner' rooms, 'access' rooms or 'multi-dimensional time travelling' rooms, the important issue is to establish if people in the most remote locations are vulnerable to the outbreak of fire on their escape route.


Stu

[Tom W]

Ah the classic trying to explain something to someone with a little knowledge who thinks they have a lot.

Good luck with them NT!

Keep us posted. 

[Midland Retty]

Ah the classic trying to explain something to someone with a little knowledge who thinks they have a lot.

Good luck with them NT!

Keep us posted. 

Educate us then Piglet. If what has been said is inaccurate and you disagree let us know, educate us, please don't make snidy comments as it serves no purpose.

[kurnal]

I think Piglet was referring to the BC person raising the issue and not the responses in this thread. Leastways thats how I read it.

[nearlythere]

That's what I took as well. Piglet wouldn't say things like that.

[Midland Retty]

Whoops - Apologies Piglet - I took your comments the wrong way!

Think I probably got up the wrong side of bed

[nearlythere]

Whoops - Apologies Piglet - I took your comments the wrong way!

Think I probably got up the wrong side of bed

A talisker hang over young man. I think you owe Piglet a few pecks on each cheek.

[nearlythere]

What does the panel think of this paragraph with regards to conditions which are applicable?


I say that it reads that A or B or C apply.

Someone has said it is saying that (A and B) or C apply.

What does the panel think?


2.6 A habitable room should open directly onto a hallway (including a corridor or
landing leading to the hallway) which leads to the entrance without passing
through any room (except a porch), other than where the habitable room –
(a) has an alternative escape route;
(b) is on a storey not more than 4.5 m above ground level and the
habitable room has an emergency egress window complying with
paragraph 2.9; or
(c) is part of a roof space conversion which complies with paragraphs2.17 to 2.22.

[Midland Retty]

I would also agree it is a or b or c, not a,b or c

I say this because (a) talks about alternative escape route (which could be into another compartment, staircase or door leading to fresh air for example) and (b) talks about escape windows. So if you had suitable alternative escape routes, you wouldn't consider / need the provision of window escape.