Inner room condition

[nearlythere]

Can anyone refer me to a legal definition of an inner room condition. We all know what it is but I would like a legal interpretation. 
Any case history would be good.
Thanks

[Midland Retty]

I'll doubt you will find one NT, other than standard definitions given in Building Regs, fire safety guidance docs etc. What do you need it for ?

[Tom W]

A room from which escape, is possible only by passing through an access room

[nearlythere]

A room from which escape, is possible only by passing through an access room

Thanks Piglet.
Think we all know that. Was looking for something much more legal like.

[Paul2886]

Interesting one this. Been trying to find out for years. So for example......there's a room at the rear of another that we will call the access room and the inner room....simple so far.  So lets remove any door between the two and make a permanent opening. Does it now all become one room. If not let's widen the opening. At what width therefore does it become one room...hmm

[nearlythere]

I'll doubt you will find one NT, other than standard definitions given in Building Regs, fire safety guidance docs etc. What do you need it for ?

Architect has a BC issue where an open plan room with kitchen/living/dining/entrance hall is considered an inner/access room condition and has asked me for help.
I thought they were regarding a stairway discharging into this area from upper level bedrooms as inner room conditions to this open plan area, and I don't have a problem with that, but no it is the open plan room with kitchen/living/dining/entrance hall being considered an inner/access room condition.
My flabber is ghasted as to how they have come up with this.
Have to go to first stage appeal to sort this and in situations like this legal definitions would be helpful although telling them not to be so feckin stupid should actually be enough.

Now maybe the real reason is lost somewhere in the ether and I am trying to get info from both sides which is proving a little difficult as BC are only quoting the Inner Room paragraph of the the tech guide as the reason for the rejection.

[nearlythere]

Interesting one this. Been trying to find out for years. So for example......there's a room at the rear of another that we will call the access room and the inner room....simple so far.  So lets remove any door between the two and make a permanent opening. Does it now all become one room. If not let's widen the opening. At what width therefore does it become one room...hmm

Came across this a long while ago and the removal of the door does not make two rooms one. It is two rooms with the connecting door missing.  As to width of opening? I would think that sufficient to make it one room ....................... Then we go back to the what size of opening question.

[Paul2886]

There's is no answer to the question and take the point of the 'missing door' remark.
Lets make an archway with the missing door....now what have we got...Ahh, I learn fast....Its an inner room with the door missing and made into an archway. How would we see this as such if we knew no different ....... just a single room with a featured archway I suppose....I give up.
I think inner rooms are only a significant problem if a person is totally shut off from the access room which is deemed as a higher fire risk, there is no detection in the access room and perhaps it cannot be viewed from the inner room either directly or via a vision panel.

[wee brian]

this is why building regs are functional rather than prescriptive. The Law is general "adequate means of escape" etc. the guidance sets out a benchmark and principles for jusdging what is adequate.

So - if you think that the layout of rooms is such that the principle established in the guides is not being met then something needs to be done.

[kurnal]

A kitchen can be an inner room so i guess you are saying that the hall is the access room for the dining room and the living room. Or is access to the dining room via the living room and then the hall?

Is there a staircase?

Is there any significant fire loading in the hall?  Are ceilings continuous and is there a good view across the whole area from the most remote part of the open plan area? What is the total travel distance like from one end to another?

[nearlythere]

A kitchen can be an inner room so i guess you are saying that the hall is the access room for the dining room and the living room. Or is access to the dining room via the living room and then the hall?

Is there a staircase?

Is there any significant fire loading in the hall?  Are ceilings continuous and is there a good view across the whole area from the most remote part of the open plan area? What is the total travel distance like from one end to another?

Big wide open space K. I think they are looking at the mixture of use in the room and using that as the inner/access interpretation. I have since heard that in a similar situation BC made someone enclose the kitchen with partition and door. That to me is the creation of an inner room.
It all sounds so very strange. Did I say that BC will not accept BS9991 as an acceptable standard but the 2012 B Regulations still refer to BS5588 Pt1 as a deemed to satisfy standard.

[Wiz]

In terms of fire alarm systems, which is what I am most interested in, my own defintion of an 'inner room' is a space large enough for building occupants to visit and use for periods longer than a few minutes, and which is seperated from another room forming part of the escape route from the inner room, by a door. The door between the door areas is an integral part of making the area two different rooms because it is this which provides the barrier which automatic detection installed in either room wil definitely  not also protect the other room, or allow a person in an inner room not to have a quick sense of the current environment of the inner room.

[Tom W]

A room from which escape, is possible only by passing through an access room

Thanks Piglet.
Think we all know that. Was looking for something much more legal like.

Wot with fancy words and wot not?

Im not sure what more you need, its not a difficult definition. Write as many words as you want but it will still come back to the same statement. 

[Midland Retty]

Hi NT

I can see where you are coming from.

To suggest an open plan room and its different constituent areas (ie lounge, kitchen) consitute inner / access room without any physical boundary seems bizare.  

The definition of a "room" (according to Building Regs E&W) is "An enclosed space within a building that is not used solely as a "circulation space".

Definition of "circulation space" (BRegs Again) is "A space (including a protected stairway) mainly used as a means of acess between a room and an exit from building and compartment.

To me it seems BC are trying to suggest the "hall" part of the open space is the access room, which is ludicrous. Is that your interpretation NT?

Back to your original question I think Piglet is right. I doubt there will be any other definition in legalese. In my experience courts will look at definitions from published guidance, and whilst they expand on such definitions, I know of no example of this relating to inner room scenarios, as the definition is, I think, quite black and white.

[kurnal]

It might be useful to refer to the oldest guidance that identified inner rooms as an issue. Usually the earliest guidance introduced new measures with a commentary, which is dropped once we take the provision for granted.

There is no mention of inner rooms as a concept  in the post war building studies, so I guess it must have first come in as a term with one version of the  CP3 chapter 4 series.  So the definition is one thing, its application in dwellings quite another.

In respect of dwelling houses, the pre 1991 mandatory rules only concerned themselves with houses of 3 storeys and the first CP3 chapter 4 part 1 for flats in blocks over 80ft did not mention inner rooms but recommended that in flats with a single exit all rooms should open off a hallway so this guidance is not really relevant to your situation.

There I go making it complicated Dotty will have a field day with me later.

Have you had a look at determinations on the planning portal website to see if there is anything similar?