FRA at Waste Management and Recycling site

[Suttonfire]

Hi All,

Long time reader, first time poster!

I was wondering whether many of you have been involved in carrying out fire risk assessments at the above types of sites? I have carried one out today and my views conflict with what has been recommended in a previous assessment - primarily in relation to the provision of a fire alarm system at the site (which was recommended in the previous assessment).

I see no point in installing a fire alarm system.

The whole picking hall is pretty much open plan and there's no way that alarm sounders would be clearly heard over the noise of the vehicles and heavy equipment operating. I don't think that even having visual indicators would be of significant benefit. There is also 24 hour security/monitoring on site, so the property protection benefit from installing a system would be negligible. There are no private hose reels on site, and I do not feel it would be appropriate to expect staff to tackle any large fires within the hall which would necessitate the use of a hose reel.

I', not asking for anyone to do my risk assessment for me, but would be interested to hear from anyone else who has carried out an assessment at a similar site.

Thanks

[William 29]

So is the hall within a building or part of it? If so if no fire alarm is fitted how do they raise the alarm in the event of a fire?

[Suttonfire]

What they call the 'picking hall' is the main building (basically just a big metal shell).

The hall is totally open plan so in my view a fire would be easily observed by anyone working within it. I think that if it was necessary to raise the alarm it would be more appropriate that they have a verbal communication procedure in place rather than relying on an alarm system which is unlikely to be heard.

I would be interested in hearing other views though.

Thanks

[nearlythere]

If the alarm is raised by all relevant persons seeing an outbreak then to me that is an adequate fire warning system.

[kurnal]

The premises require a fire emergency plan and procedure.
One element of that is a suitable and sufficient means of raising the alarm in case of fire, appropriate to the nature of the fire risk and the building.
Many of these places are open sided sheds but some are enclosed and some contain crushing plant, conveyors and sorting drums etc. Most contain large quantities of combustible mixed materials awaiting sorting, which may contain flammable liquids, aerosols etc.

If a fire occurs in unsorted miscellaneous waste it may be necessary to evacuate fairly quickly. Some means needs to be specified to achieve this and included in the emergency plan. In some cases a shout of fire may be appropriate, strategically sited  air horns may be another way, or an electrical fire alarm and strobes  may be needed noise levels are high, travel distances extended or escape routes limited.

[Midland Retty]

To add to what others have already said consider the benefit of high ceilings, whether there is an unhindered view of the length and breadth of the building, location / number of final exits, places of temporary and absolute safety around the building and the site as a whole. Are then any lone plant operators working at height in isolated control cabins within the building?

I'd also consider other factors such as: how well the machinery is maintained, and the standard of house keeping - are waste groups sorted and segregated - is it a well organised operation or simply organised chaos? Is waste left to fester for long periods of time? If so does it get regularly turned over ?

In my experience migrant workers are often employed at waste sites - so consider the staff - is english their first language? - do they understand what to do in an emergency, would they understand the shout of fire.

Are gas powered fork lifts (or other vehicles) in operation within the building, are there battery vehicles in use? If so where are they charged? Some "trommel" machines have their own internal fire suppression systems? Are there any at this particular site?

All those considerations would help me to decide if I needed a fire alarm system, and whether it needs to be automatic or manual. Again height of the ceilings, how dusty the place gets, the realistic benefit of utilising automatic visual warning and audible warnings should be weighed up as well as the need to shut down equipment in the event of fire.


If you are going to be tasked with creating the emergency plan for the site consider that particularly at waste sites a fire could take days to extinguish especially every last hotspot, depending on what is being processed.

I would certainly contact the local fire service and invite them down to conduct a site survey.

[Suttonfire]

Thanks again for the input.

Another issue which strikes me regarding the site is the lack of an alternative escape route from the rear of the premises (main hall). The travel distance to the main exit is significantly greater than those acceptable in current guidance (BS 9999). However, a large concrete perimeter has been constructed inside the main picking hall - making the construction of an alternative escape route difficult.

I am assuming that this construction would have been approved at some point via building control. I can't really see that they could implement adequate compensatory measures which would allow the need for an alternative escape route to be negated. Anyone else came across this type of situation in (what has correctly been described above) as effectively a large open sided shed?

[kurnal]

I am assuming that this construction would have been approved at some point via building control. I can't really see that they could implement adequate compensatory measures which would allow the need for an alternative escape route to be negated. Anyone else came across this type of situation in (what has correctly been described above) as effectively a large open sided shed?

In my experience you cant assume that any alterations have been subject to Building Regs approval, because very often they have not. In fact in my experience some buildings are built first and designed later.

The bottom line is that whether it has Building Regs approval or not is academic because your fire risk assessment will take precedence over everything else in respect of the Fire Safety Order. Are the travel distances such that any fire / smoke is likely to prevent  persons escaping safely, especially if its an open sided shed?

[nearlythere]

Thanks again for the input.

Another issue which strikes me regarding the site is the lack of an alternative escape route from the rear of the premises (main hall). The travel distance to the main exit is significantly greater than those acceptable in current guidance (BS 9999). However, a large concrete perimeter has been constructed inside the main picking hall - making the construction of an alternative escape route difficult.

I am assuming that this construction would have been approved at some point via building control. I can't really see that they could implement adequate compensatory measures which would allow the need for an alternative escape route to be negated. Anyone else came across this type of situation in (what has correctly been described above) as effectively a large open sided shed?

No but I can concur with K in that because it's there does not mean compliance with BC. In fact I would go as far to suggest that, from experience,  there are many buildings which have Completion Certs and not built to B Regs or deemed to satisfy standards. Hence why you should take little notice of Building Certs when carrying out a FRA, IMHO of course.

I have a three storey child care facility with a single stairway which BC passed with the top floor having egg box doors enclosing the stairway but saw fit to close a small 20 seater coffee shop because it did not have a disabled wc. 

[Midland Retty]

Very often you will get buildings which have sprung up without BC permission and if they have been up for more than 6 months BC won't do anything about it (in my local area thaqt is I'm not saying its the case across the country)

[Golden]

"In fact in my experience some buildings are built first and designed later."

Don't forget those that are just 'built' and not designed first or later!!