False alarm/Unwanted fire signal

[lingmoor]

Sorry if it appears to be lingmoors version of question time

What is your view on the difference between a FA and a UwFS?

The definition that I have read is that an UwFs is:
 'an incident resulting in the undesirable activation of the fire detection and alarm system'

I have read on here that it is an UwFS if it is relayed to the fire service.... however certain documents state that an UwFS has two groups, Group 1 is for Fire Service mobilisation and Group 2 when they are not mobilised, so therefore could it be that an UwFS is not necessary if the Fire Service attend?

 It also says that since normal activities may result in the uncontrolled emission of heat and/or smoke (fire) resulting in the undesirable activation of the fire detection and alarm system, it is possible for a genuine fire incident to be classed as a UwFS... such as bread crumbs in a toaster being heated

so is a UwFS burnt toast crumbs (fire) and a false alarm dust getting into a detector?

so after that long winded palava...I refer you to the question I raised first

cheers

[nearlythere]

The definition that I have read is that an UwFs is:
 'an incident resulting in the undesirable activation of the fire detection and alarm system'

Even activation by a fire is undesirable.

Yep the unwanted bit is that it is not wanted by the fire service.

Burning toast is a fire same as a burning chip pan. It may just be a piece of bread exposed to heat too long but it is still technically a fire.

[lingmoor]

ta for that

edit: although an UwFS Group 2 is also an UwFS.. even though they dont attend

false alarms however......

blimey it's a right ol' muddle, an no mistake

[nearlythere]

Politics Lingmoor.
In the past my FS started to catagorise burning toast as a fire and not a false alarm, for obvious reasons. Then when the big drive came to push down false alarms and save money they decided to call them Unwanted Calls meaning false alarms.
But I am a bit of a cynical bitch now.

[Mike Buckley]

Personally when I am doing an FRA I tell the client there is no such thing as a false alarm they are all unwanted fire signals and the building should react. The problem with labelling things as false alarms is that people a) start to ignore them, b) customers guests etc. start to want compensation.

After all the fire alarm system has worked properly in that it has received a signal and activated and people inside the building do not know whether it is a fire or an unwanted fire signal until it has been investigated or they see the orange flickery stuff.

How the fire brigade want to categorise it is up to them, but as far as the people in the building are concerned there should be no such ting.

[lingmoor]

thanks all

The main reason why I asked for views is that in the updated HTM 05-01 Managing healthcare fire safety, (Appendix E-Developing fire safety protocols) there is a list of suggested Protocols, one of which is 'false alarms and unwanted fire signals'

 There is a list of questions for each protocol and under this one,  one of the questions is

'What actions should staff take to prevent false alarms becoming unwanted fire signals?'

I could have put this in the Healthcare forum but I just wanted a general opinion...I could also ask Colin Newman I spose

[Phoenix]

Within the context you speak of you can look for clarification in Fig 1 in HTM05/03 part H.  This makes it quite clear what they mean but the fact that the distinction is so well hidden does indicate a lack of thought by the authors of HTM05/01 when they chose to include these terms without definitions in the same publication.

Outside of the healthcare context this can be regarded as an issue of semantics more than material significance unless there is a readily available definition of the distinction between the two phrases.

Stu

[Tom Sutton]

I have had difficulty in accessing HTM 05.03 document but have located them at https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/suite-of-guidance-on-fire-safety-throughout-healthcare-premises-parts-a-to-m

[lingmoor]

Within the context you speak of you can look for clarification in Fig 1 in HTM05/03 part H.  This makes it quite clear what they mean but the fact that the distinction is so well hidden does indicate a lack of thought by the authors of HTM05/01 when they chose to include these terms without definitions in the same publication.

Outside of the healthcare context this can be regarded as an issue of semantics more than material significance unless there is a readily available definition of the distinction between the two phrases.

Stu

Thanks Stu


however Fig 1 or the text doesn't mention 'false alarms' either, just fires and UwFS... so no distinction between false alarms and UwFS

unless I'm missing something

[Phoenix]

Hi Lingmoor,

I may be looking at a previous version.  The Fig 1 I refer to is in the 2nd edition from July 2009.  At the bottom of the flowchart it states:

"Did activation result in the fire service being summoned?"

If the answer is "No" then this is defined as a "False alarm"
If the answer is "Yes" then this is defined as an "Unwanted fire signal"

As I said earlier, these are just their definitions and in other contexts other people may mean different things by these phrases.

Stu

[Phoenix]

Well done for locating the documents, Tom.  I see that the 2009 edition of part H is still current.

Stu

[jokar]

To answer the original question.

A false alarm is a fire alarm event within a premises that is managed by the staff at the premises.

An Uwfs is a false alarm that is transmitted to an FRS.

[lingmoor]

Thanks for all your replies...Cheers Tom

apologies Stu...you are of course correct

[Colin Newman]

Lingmoor,

I suspect the original confusion resulted from reference to the version of HTM 05-03 Part H that has been superseded.  In the revised version of Part H, the "Group 1 and "Group 2" UwFS distinctions were dropped, and the definitions of "False Alarms" and "Unwanted Fire Signals" were revised to reflect the CFOA guidance on unwanted fire signals and fire service response.

NT, I'd argue that activation of the fire detection and alarm system by a fire is desirable!  The fire surely won't be, but isn't the reason for investing considerable resources in a fire detection and alarm system for it to activate when a fire occurs?

Stu, I take your point about not including the definitions for false alarms and unwanted fire signals in HTM 05-01, and whist I could prattle on about the series of Firecode documents being a set of interrelated sources of guidance etc. the truth is that HTM 05-01 was written in a hurry and no one in the technical engagement or publication team picked up the omission.

[lingmoor]

Lingmoor,

I suspect the original confusion resulted from reference to the version of HTM 05-03 Part H that has been superseded.  In the revised version of Part H, the "Group 1 and "Group 2" UwFS distinctions were dropped, and the definitions of "False Alarms" and "Unwanted Fire Signals" were revised to reflect the CFOA guidance on unwanted fire signals and fire service response.

guilty as charged