Fire Extinguisher ID Signs

[Tom Sutton]

Can anyone tell me if Fire Extinguisher ID Signs are needed above every extinguisher?.  Could you also point me in the direction of any specific legislation that says this.
 
I am aware the the Regulatory Reform Fire Safety Order states in 13.-(1) (B) any non-automatic fire fighting equipment so provided is easily accessible, simple to use and indicated by signs. 
 
Indicated by signs....., could this just be a fire point sign? or could the extinguisher act as its own sign. I cant find anywhere where it states that extinguisher specific signs are needed above every extinguisher.

An enquiry I received recently any observations?

[nearlythere]

Can anyone tell me if Fire Extinguisher ID Signs are needed above every extinguisher?.  Could you also point me in the direction of any specific legislation that says this.
 
I am aware the the Regulatory Reform Fire Safety Order states in 13.-(1) (B) any non-automatic fire fighting equipment so provided is easily accessible, simple to use and indicated by signs.  
 
Indicated by signs....., could this just be a fire point sign? or could the extinguisher act as its own sign. I cant find anywhere where it states that extinguisher specific signs are needed above every extinguisher.

An enquiry I received recently any observations?

Not legislation but..............

BS5308 Pt8  2012 Section 6

The position and type of a fire extinguisher should be indicated on a sign so
that, if the extinguisher is removed, this can be identified during a safety
inspection, and a replacement ordered.

[AnthonyB]

A fire point sign or extinguisher pictogram alone would, IMO, meet the regulations, but if you are going to stick signs up at all the ID signs give more information.

I must admit I wonder what was the point in making all extinguishers red if they still need signing anyway!

[nearlythere]

The legislation requires the provision of fire fighting equipment, where necessary etc etc, and a good way of doing so would by using these fire extinguisher things that even have a British Standard named after them. If one thinks it is necessary to have a bucket of water for firefighting then you can do so but if you do you have to make it identifiable and easy to use  and a good way of doing that is to have an information sign. You can have the sign on the bucket if you want just like there is on these extinguisher things but the good man who wrote BS5306 pt 8 thought it a good idea to have an additional sign pinned on the wall above it so that if some idiot decided to steal it or use it as a door stop someone might notice it was missing and the correct type of extinguisher replaced or returned. 

[Mike Buckley]

Another aspect comes in when you decide to reposition an extinguisher, how do you know whether you have an empty bracket because the extinguisher has been relocated and no-one has taken the bracket off or someone has nicked the extinguisher?

On a couple of sites I have been on there are empty extinguisher mountings which have been left there because, if they were to be removed, it would be necessary to redecorate the wall! Either that or the job of removing the bracket is so far down the must do list that it will only be done when the area is refurbished.

If the mounting has a sign there should be a corresponding extinguisher there, no sign no extinguisher.

[Tom Sutton]

Art 13(1) the first two words in art 13 (1) is "Where necessary" and art 13 (1)b states indicate by a sign.

I think the legislation RR(FS)O art 13(1) b is quite clear "Where necessary a fire extinguisher sign is required" and the British Standard recommends a FFE sign should be provided, but would not a bracket without an extinguisher hanging from it, indicate it had been removed? IMO the decision lies with the Responsible Person whether it is necessary or not.(Risk Assessment)

I know Mike has covered about the fire extinguisher being relocated but if the bracket hasn't been removed then use a sign the fire extinguisher has been relocated.
 
Check out https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/regulatory-reform-fire-safety-order-2005-guidance-note-enforcement for clarification.

[colin todd]

Tam,  There is no requirement for extinguisher signs.  Only if the extinguisher could  otherwise be hidden or overlooked.

[TFEM]

1) I am aware the the Regulatory Reform Fire Safety Order states in 13.-(1) (B) any non-automatic fire fighting equipment so provided is easily accessible, simple to use and indicated by signs.
You've answered your own question
 

2) Risk assessment........wrong extinguisher, wrong fire = ID sign.

John

[Tom Sutton]

1) I am aware the the Regulatory Reform Fire Safety Order states in 13.-(1) (B) any non-automatic fire fighting equipment so provided is easily accessible, simple to use and indicated by signs.
You've answered your own question

John

You are reading art 13(1) b in isolation the first two words in art 13 (1) is "Where necessary" then read (13 1b). So they are only required if necessary.
 
Check out https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/regulatory-reform-fire-safety-order-2005-guidance-note-enforcement for clarification.

[nearlythere]

Ah! The old "where necessary" chestnut.

“Where necessary”
27. The European Workplace Directive (89/654/EEC), in the preliminary note (paragraph 1)
to the Annex, states that:
“the obligations laid down in this Annex apply whenever required by the features of
the workplace, the activity, the circumstances or a hazard.”
28. This is implemented in the Order by use of the term “where necessary”, and that
expression should be construed accordingly.
29. The Order requires that fire precautions (such as fire fighting equipment, fire detection
and warning, conditions relating to emergency routes and exits) should be provided
(and maintained) “where necessary”.
30. This means that the fire precautions provided (and maintained) by the responsible
person are those needed to reasonably protect relevant persons from risks to them in
case of fire. This is determined by the findings of a fire risk assessment, including the
preventative measures which have or will be taken. In practice, it is very unlikely that
a properly conducted fire risk assessment, which takes into account all the matters
relevant for the safety of persons in case of fi re, will conclude that no fire precautions
(including maintenance) are necessary.

So what does "where necessary" mean?

If a premises has a "no fire fighting" policy does that mean extinguishers are not necessary?

Or does it mean that fire fighting equipment is required and the ones necessary, due the size, risk, etc, should be provided?

Depends whether you are selling or buying.

[Mike Buckley]

It means pound signs for the lawyers

[TFEM]

"where necessary"

Point 1 becomes necessary because of point 2.

John

[chrpay]

I agree with the point about them being red and also instructions on them.

The answer would come from the risk assessment.

If there is a danger of them being moved and the managerial actions cannot control this, then may the i/d is required. In this case I would rather address the managerial actions.

I have seen i/d...even tasteful ones place on tasteful boxes that may house extinguishers

One would have to look at staff training and what staff are required to do in case of fire. In most circusmstances where they are required to use them, staff may be able to locate them as they are big and red!

[Dinnertime Dave]

A real bugbear of mine.

The man from ##### he says we have to have them.

Normally at £5 per sign and £10 to fit. They can be downloaded for 49p and fit them yourself. As a school governor the man from ##### wanted about £120. I could go on - Rant over

[TFEM]

If your ##### man says you have to have them, just remind him that as a school, you are free to buy your services elsewhere.
Then find somebody that will provide them free with every new extinguisher...like we do.

John