Charges for Attendance at False Alarms

[Mike Buckley]

WIth regard to the cost bear in mind that LFB was charging £260 per appliance per hour for special services, if this was charged for turnout in Central London the bill could easily reach the £1000 mark.

Playing Devil's advocate, if the FB is turned out to an alarm caused by steam or smoking, and CT's comment was that the system did not malfunction held sway, could the FB classify it as a False Alarm Malicious?

[Tom Sutton]

I agree NT and I finished saying we will have to wait and see. I believe the first case should be interesting because of the use of certain words,
   1. Take "persistent problem" what does it mean, once a week once a month, once a year, take any number from one to a hundred?
   2. Also direct or indirect does this means an ARC can be prosecuted?

From the Localism Act 2011 section 10/18c (items a to d has to apply).

This section applies to a report of fire if -

(a)the report is of fire at premises that are not domestic premises,
(b)the report is false,
(c)the report is made as a direct or indirect result of warning equipment having malfunctioned or been misinstalled, and
(d)there is a persistent problem with false reports of fire at the premises that are made as a direct or indirect result of warning equipment under common control having malfunctioned or been misinstalled.

[Mike Buckley]

Yes it should be interesting.

1. Looking at the history it would seem that "persistent problem" means whatever the local fire authority decides, WYFRS 3, London 10 etc. it could be fun particularly if the old CFOA guidance is cited.

2. I would think that the direct or indirect was put in to cover ARCs so that the get out of 'we didn't call you the ARC did' is not available. Having said that it could probably apply if the false alarms can be shown to be due to a fault etc. in the ARC's equipment.

Also going back to CT's point, I wonder whose responsibility it would be to prove that the warning equipment had malfunctioned etc. and I assume there is a right of appeal which could also be interesting.

[lingmoor]

The other points are that what actually happens in a hospital when the alarms operate. My experience is nothing at all, staff carry on as normal. I have never been to a ward where staff have prepared any patients for movement. Why? because they know it is the toaster that has set the alarm off and the management like that the fire service will come and give the all clear.

not in the hospital I work in they don't...the ward staff check the cause of the alarm immediately the continuous fire alarm sounds and the internal fire team are bleeped by switchboard and instructed to attend the location of the alarm by voice alert.

[jokar]

According to the Wise one, CT term, CLG stance is that persistent is more than once.

[Dinnertime Dave]

The other points are that what actually happens in a hospital when the alarms operate. My experience is nothing at all, staff carry on as normal. I have never been to a ward where staff have prepared any patients for movement. Why? because they know it is the toaster that has set the alarm off and the management like that the fire service will come and give the all clear.

not in the hospital I work in they don't...the ward staff check the cause of the alarm immediately the continuous fire alarm sounds and the internal fire team are bleeped by switchboard and instructed to attend the location of the alarm by voice alert.

If they find it to be a false alarm, do they silence and reset and then Call the fire service and tell them they aren't needed?

[idlefire]

According to the Wise one, CT term, CLG stance is that persistent is more than once.

Jokar,

Please can you reference the CLG stance to which you refer?

Also, did the "Wise one" not leave DCLG and subsequently retire?

[lingmoor]

DD

The clinical site manager who is at the assembly point (main entrance) awaiting the fire service, with high viz jacket on and risk register  will get the message of type of incident, it is the CSM's call if the fire service are stood down or not and the CSM can silence the alarm if it is a known false alarm...but not reset ...the duty electrician is the only person that can reset

[Dinnertime Dave]

DD

The clinical site manager who is at the assembly point (main entrance) awaiting the fire service, with high viz jacket on and risk register  will get the message of type of incident, it is the CSM's call if the fire service are stood down or not and the CSM can silence the alarm if it is a known false alarm...but not reset ...the duty electrician is the only person that can reset

Nice to see you have procedures in place, I think in essence that is what F&RS want. We as a service don't ask for anything more, but until we started being stronger with our hospitals they were happy that we turned out twice a week.

[Paul2886]

Hi DD, Of course an old cynic would say "not getting stronger" but trying to attend less calls to justify shedding firefighters and closing fire stations. Fully agree that RP's should be avoiding, where possible, nuisance activation of their fire alarm sytems but does not attending hospitals and nursing homes come under that old label of "Rendering humantarian services" and assisting in advising in reducing unwanted alarms. Not sure that it's getting tougher but less sympathetic in some cases. I was recently told by a fire officer that the brigade is now a business and had to be run as such......not sure that will bode well with an elderly person in a care home in his or her twilight moments of life, whose taxes help pay for the very buildings and fire appliances these people work in and use would understand that sentiment.
Don't think for one minute I don't understand the burden placed upon the service caused by false alarms but a blanket policy of non-attendance such as in ourlocal  FS just doesn't seem to fit well with most people who for years have admired and enjoyed the comfort of their presence in a moment of uncertainty.  Gosh, I'm rambling on here, but I feel better for it

[Dinnertime Dave]

Hi DD, Of course an old cynic would say "not getting stronger" but trying to attend less calls to justify shedding firefighters and closing fire stations. Fully agree that RP's should be avoiding, where possible, nuisance activation of their fire alarm sytems but does not attending hospitals and nursing homes come under that old label of "Rendering humantarian services" and assisting in advising in reducing unwanted alarms. Not sure that it's getting tougher but less sympathetic in some cases. I was recently told by a fire officer that the brigade is now a business and had to be run as such......not sure that will bode well with an elderly person in a care home in his or her twilight moments of life, whose taxes help pay for the very buildings and fire appliances these people work in and use would understand that sentiment.
Don't think for one minute I don't understand the burden placed upon the service caused by false alarms but a blanket policy of non-attendance such as in ourlocal  FS just doesn't seem to fit well with most people who for years have admired and enjoyed the comfort of their presence in a moment of uncertainty.  Gosh, I'm rambling on here, but I feel better for it

Glad you feel better for a ramble. There isn't anyone more cynical than me, I can assure you. Fortunately I work in a brigade that will attend residential care/sheltered housing and domestic premises. We do have the option of non attendance at hospitals but only after negotiations and we haven't refused yet. What we have done is reduce attendances at my local hospital by 90%.

 Surely you don't expect us to attend the call to an office block that doesn't know the code or can't find the key to their alarm panel so can't silence it, or the shop where the key holder won't attend because it is dark, or the multi storey car park that has a manual system installed and the local yobs keep setting it off and the security guard won't attend because he is scared of them but will call us because there is 5 of us.  All these are real examples of the misuse of the service.

There you go I can ramble on with the best of you

[Mike Buckley]

DD I would agree that the examples you give are misuse of the service, but surely there are better ways of dealing with the problem than a blanket ban on attending automatic fire alarms.

[nearlythere]

What about prosecuting for not starting to evacuate?
I can't see what fining the likes of hospitals will do to alleviate the problem. It won't hit anyones pocket except the taxpayer. Much better to fine the CEO personally. That should get things moving.

[jokar]

Idlefire; you are correct on both counts, yes he did leave CLG and then a year later retired form the LFB.  His words were "persistent as defined in CLG speak is more than one", reference material?

[Dinnertime Dave]

DD I would agree that the examples you give are misuse of the service, but surely there are better ways of dealing with the problem than a blanket ban on attending automatic fire alarms.

Mike, read my previous posts, my service doesn't have a blanket ban. I disagree with the brigades that have a blanket ban. But ultimately I work for a service that has policies that I have to work with, whether I agree or disagree.

We do occasionally after lots of effort remove premises from a response unless there is a confirmed fire. I personally haven't ever done this, I haven't needed to, I have spent time with companies advising and training staff and still responding whist this takes place. When they are ready they they can be left to manage their system.

Coincidentally, I have today been approached today by a company that has been taken off response who have just had a new Fire warning system, if they show that they can manage their system we are looking at reinstating response.