Fire doors throughout the department have all been wedged open

[Tom Sutton]

An interesting query, no wonder a fire station burned down in Norfolk if this is the standard of IOs'

Hello, I work in an operating department within the NHS. Our internal fire doors throughout the department have all been wedged open for several months now, this is because there has been a problem with them staying open with the magnetic door release connected to the fire alarm. We have been waiting months for the manufactures to come and fix this issue.

As a health and safety rep within my department i am concerned about this, apparently the local fire officer has said its OK to wedge them open!!!!

Can you advice

[AnthonyB]

I don't know why they are waiting months for manufacturers unless they are claiming defect and wanting free replacement as surely something could easily be sorted out unless it's the fire alarm side and the system is closed so that only the manufacturer can carry out work on it and they are being a bit slow (a name springs to mind....)

Anyhow this doesn't justify the prolonged compromise of compartmentation & MoE protection - if it's known that it will take a while to resolve then they should fit DorGards or DorGard X units which are far better than a wedge even if the basic unit is only Cat B.

But of course that requires putting hands in pockets......

As for the alleged IO's comments, it's sad but true that there are a number of over laid back ones out there who will seemingly let anything pass - did they say it was OK in writing I wonder?

[Namerif]

I must have missed that report about the fire in the fire station.  How many fatals and injuries were there?

What is the relevance of the fire to the standard of inspecting officer?  Is Toms failing to make a distinction between life safety and property protection?

[Tom Sutton]

Namerif absolutely no relevance whats so ever just having a pop at IOs' or at least their training. I cannot imagine in my day any FPO (that's what we used to call them) accepting fire doors being wedged open. Incidentally you never missed it, you tool NT to task over it.

[Firey Fellow]

If I had a penny everytime I heard "The fire officer said......" or  "Joe Bloggs said this.....Uncle Tom Cobley said that....." etc I wouldn't be talking to you now - I'd most likely be on my own private carribean island being wafted by bikini clad ladies drinking cocktails wondering which supercar I should buy next....whilst pausing momentarily to think of all those poor fire safety professionals sweating it out back in blighty.

[nearlythere]

If I had a penny everytime I heard "The fire officer said......" or  "Joe Bloggs said this.....Uncle Tom Cobley said that....." etc I wouldn't be talking to you now - I'd most likely be on my own private carribean island being wafted by bikini clad ladies drinking cocktails wondering which supercar I should buy next....whilst pausing momentarily to think of all those poor fire safety professionals sweating it out back in blighty.

But Eric. You would miss us all dearly. If you did I would just wish you were back here again so there. Anyway, your tab is a disgrace.

[Firey Fellow]

Aw bless you Ernie. your comments about my tab constitute banter which is strictly taboo in the serious forums!

[kurnal]

A fire as serious as occurred in the fire station would inevitably prompt an audit by the service if this were a normal commercial building.  I have a pound to your penny that  no fire risk assessment had been carried out.

You would not deny us the opportunity to have a pop when we see a chance to expose the do as I say not as I do culture. I remember running out of fingers counting door wedges in the staircase of one fire brigade in the capitals main training hq.

[Firey Fellow]

Not sure who thats directed at Kurnal but I thought this thread was about propped doors in NHS property. If you want to discuss the matter of that fire at a fire station and all the issues surrounding that then great but lets start a fresh thread because I have to say propped doors in a fire hq may well be a different issue, and may have different implications to, propped doors in a hospital as I think we all appreciate.

[Tom Sutton]

Sorry, trying to be clever has resulted in the thread becoming confused in fact it is just two points that i need confirming.

1. A fire safety professional should never recommend fire doors to be wedged open irrespective of type of premises.
2. It should not take several months to have a fault on magnetic fire door holders rectified and if it is, then an alternative should be provided.

[Dinnertime Dave]

1. A fire safety professional should never recommend fire doors to be wedged open irrespective of type of premises.

So if I inspect any hotel at 11am, I am likely to see the housekeeping team using a trolley to hold open the bedroom door. Do I tell them that is never allowed or do I ask them what they do if the fire alarm activates?

The good one say I push the trolley into the room, shut the door and report to the assembly point.

[kurnal]

I know of one fire safety trainer who was interviewed under caution by a brigade in the  midlands.

The interview arose following a fire safety audit when door wedges were found  and the manager used the defence of "But so and so said it was ok on our fire warden course"

When asked the question during a  fire warden course, he had said that it was ok to wedge a fire door temporarily  whilst moving large furniture items - provided there was someone there on hand to close the door whilst ever it was wedged open.  But the brigade made him sweat for a few months before telling him to be more careful in future.

[Mike Buckley]

So if I inspect any hotel at 11am, I am likely to see the housekeeping team using a trolley to hold open the bedroom door. Do I tell them that is never allowed or do I ask them what they do if the fire alarm activates?

Bearing in mind that in a number of hotel chains the housekeeping staff are told to wedge the door open and park the trolley across the door whilst they are working in a room as a precaution against being assaulted.

[Firey Fellow]

I know of one fire safety trainer who was interviewed under caution by a brigade in the  midlands.

The interview arose following a fire safety audit when door wedges were found  and the manager used the defence of "But so and so said it was ok on our fire warden course"

When asked the question during a  fire warden course, he had said that it was ok to wedge a fire door temporarily  whilst moving large furniture items - provided there was someone there on hand to close the door whilst ever it was wedged open.  But the brigade made him sweat for a few months before telling him to be more careful in future.

Made him sweat you say? Never nice to be questioned or investigated granted. But made him sweat? Do you know that first hand? Is it as bad as you make on? If so I'm happy to talk about this issue and if the brigade are in the wrong well lets do something about it even if its just to discuss our distaste for their behaviour in a public forum. But lets please be sure we quote facts and not third hand hear say or what was heard from a mate in passing (which by the way Kurnal I'm not saying you are doing)
  

But what I would ask is this: is what you descirbed what actually happened? or did the brigade in question try to gather evidence in an accepted and appropriate manner to actually determine whether any offence had been committed? Cos if we don't want enforcing authorities to investigate stuff fairly then fine, but I'm not sure that is healthy for society it almost suggests they will assume guilty til proven innocent.

I will happily come on this forum and tell you about law and why it is so so difficult to simply prosecute someone, what I won't accept is hear say, unless it is shown the nforcing authority were out of order - in which case I'll tell you how to complain against them and get legitimate redress.

Furthermore you mention the caution - do you know what the caution entails and what authorities have to do when anyone is placed under caution ? - if you do then fine but you make it sound like someone is under arrest if they are under caution. Kurnal (and any other member) if you wish me to do so I will happily write a thread about the caution on these pages, describing what the caution actually means and what peoples rights are so no one is in doubt that the caution is there to protect anyone is suspected of a crime, and how it does not exist to help enforcing authorities - its there as a basic human right.

[kurnal]

I am talking about fact and occurred about 3 years ago. I advised the individual in question at the time  ( a local competitor ) as I had a view (as we all would) on the application of the FSO in such a way. The investigation was conducted under PACE at fire service HQ, the individual paid several hundred pounds for (pretty poor) legal advice that was never recovered and lost several days work as a result. The individual was cautioned (much too early). I have known him for many years (but not socially). During the investigation he visited me several times at my home to discuss the case. I advised him to change his lawyer , to  challenge the brigade and seek to redress but his legal adviser suggested that co-operation was the way forward.

Thanks for the offer FF but for the purpose of this thread I was making the point that anyone who suggests its ok to wedge fire doors or to tolerate wedged doors needs to think very carefully. I am happy to discuss the case with you in private by pm. It did lead to criminal proceedings but not for the trainer involved.

For the avoidance of doubt wedging a fire door open completely negates a doors fire protection role and places persons at risk.