HMO's

[kurnal]

Can anyone please tell me what constitutes a HMO? is it just the fact that the residences share common areas such as a kitchen, lounge, etc

There are NHS staff residences where residents have their own bedroom but have shared rooms as mentioned above. Rent is paid to the Hospital Trust.

Looking through the LACORS guide it says that "shared housed are described as HMO's where the whole property has been rented out by an identifiable group" and it mentions the residents 'not being related'

such as students or work colleagues...so I assume these are HMO's...or are they!

Para 35.3 says there may be 'grey areas'  and it could be 'shared houses...oh good!

thanks

Lingmoor - are the staff renting just the bedroom? Is it a condition of their employment that they live in the block? A group of colleagues who get together to rent a flat is one thing but compulsory residence in an accommodation block where rent is charged to each individual against use of a room is something else. I have come across both scenarios in the NHS.   

[nearlythere]

Check out on the Scottish Government website item 4 and I am fairly certain this applies to the rest of the UK.

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/Justice/public-safety/Fire-Rescue/FireLaw/FireLaw/FAQ/Premises

4. I work from home. Do I have to carry out a fire safety risk assessment in respect of my home?
No. The legislation is not intended to cover those working from home if the principal use of the premises remains a private dwelling. If, however, the premises form part of a business (even though there may be no employees) or a room/rooms are made available to paying guests on a commercial basis (such as in a guest house/bed and breakfast), then the premises may no longer be considered a "private dwelling" and may therefore be subject to the fire safety legislation for as long as they are used for that purpose.

There is still a little problem with the wording of this section Tom. If like many others i use a corner of the kitchen table to do my business does that make the whole house an office environment?

I suspect that very much depends on where the tipping point is. I do know of a situation in NI where a large dwelling provided 3 rooms for B&B and BC want to redefine the purpose group of the building. The dwelling owner successfully argued that because the B&B areas of the building made up less than half of the building it was still, in principle a, dwelling.

[colin todd]

Almosthere, I am in NI all next week. Can I come and have supper at a corner of your kitchen table, but without being a paying guest.

[nearlythere]

Almosthere, I am in NI all next week. Can I come and have supper at a corner of your kitchen table, but without being a paying guest.

No. There is only room for me otherwise I might get stung from BC for using my private place for business use and entertaining business associates. Anyway as you are half Irish why have you not been here supporting the bike race?

Which I must add by edit has been a fantastic and wonderful experience for NI, despite the rain.

[colin todd]

I am not invited to Nearly Towers then?

[Dinnertime Dave]

Check out on the Scottish Government website item 4 and I am fairly certain this applies to the rest of the UK.

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/Justice/public-safety/Fire-Rescue/FireLaw/FireLaw/FAQ/Premises

4. I work from home. Do I have to carry out a fire safety risk assessment in respect of my home?
No. The legislation is not intended to cover those working from home if the principal use of the premises remains a private dwelling. If, however, the premises form part of a business (even though there may be no employees) or a room/rooms are made available to paying guests on a commercial basis (such as in a guest house/bed and breakfast), then the premises may no longer be considered a "private dwelling" and may therefore be subject to the fire safety legislation for as long as they are used for that purpose.

There is still a little problem with the wording of this section Tom. If like many others i use a corner of the kitchen table to do my business does that make the whole house an office environment?

I suspect that very much depends on where the tipping point is. I do know of a situation in NI where a large dwelling provided 3 rooms for B&B and BC want to redefine the purpose group of the building. The dwelling owner successfully argued that because the B&B areas of the building made up less than half of the building it was still, in principle a, dwelling.

Slightly different in England and Wales, I seem to remember a case in Wales where a hotel/accommodation owner claimed that he only let accommodation a couple of weekends a year so the premises didn't fall under the FSO. Lost the case I believe. Got the details at work. Will find them.

[nearlythere]

I am not invited to Nearly Towers then?

All you want is to eat my food and drink my booze Dot. All of it.

[colin todd]

OK Almost, I will bring the drink. Get mrs Almost to do the food?

[Tom Sutton]

For  a single domestic dwelling the FSO does not apply, but if the occupier employs a contractor, (cleaner, plumber) the house is now is their workplace, but because the contractor is unlikely to have control, he/she is not the RP, consequently no FRA,  but I think the contractor does have a duty of care.

However the problem arises when the owner or occupier does have control and uses part of a single private dwelling for non-domestic use. It then could be argued it does come under the FSO, but it seems to depend on the purpose it is used for and the degree of use. A small office doesn't but a B&B does.

It could be argued that the cleaner's employer (NHS) does have control, therefore is the RP and should conduct a FRA. However because it?s a low hazard situation a FRA would not be required, because in other domestic premises it would also not apply? It appears it depends on risk hazard, a cleaner, daytime risk, low hazard, and a B&B night-time risk, high hazard.

[nearlythere]

However the problem arises when the owner or occupier does have control and uses part of a single private dwelling for non-domestic use. It then could be argued it does come under the FSO, but it seems to depend on the purpose it is used for and the degree of use. A small office doesn't but a B&B does.

Using that argument Tom if you invited people to stay with you over the weekend has the dwelling become a B&B for that period?

[Tom Sutton]

If they are guests then you are not charging them then it is not a non-domestic use, not a business. I don't fully understand NT, I am trying to see where the cut off point is, a small office is OK a B&B isn't, why?

[Clevelandfire 3]

to me if they are all work colleagues which they are loosely speaking id call it a shared house. you can relax standards in shared houses even though they are still classed as h.m.o.s.

You have got the "to me" bit correct CF but not sure about the rest. I think legislation has already defined what HMOs are.

for crying out loud i dont and have never denied that this is a HMO. i think you and others need to read the legislation and guidance out there about this very issue it is so clear cut that even Colin Todd would understand it. actually i think my grandaughter who is 7 would. can we move on now? they say the fire rescue service is totally uneducated when it comes to fire safety. i think quite a few non fire service personnel are as well.

[Paul2886]

He's some more definitions to confuse things even more.

1. An entire house or flat which is let to 3 or more tenants who form 2 or more households and who share a kitchen, bathroom or toilet.
2. A house which has been converted entirely into bedsits or other non-self-contained accommodation and which is let to 3 or more tenants who form two or more households and who share kitchen, bathroom or toilet facilities.
3. A converted house which contains one or more flats which are not wholly self-contained (ie the flat does not contain within it a kitchen, bathroom and toilet) and which is occupied by 3 or more tenants who form two or more households.
4. A building which is converted entirely into self-contained flats if the conversion did not meet the standards of the 1991 Building Regulations and more than one-third of the flats are let on short-term tenancies.
5. In order to be an HMO the property must be used as the tenants? only or main residence and it should be used solely or mainly to house tenants. Properties let to students and migrant workers will be treated as their only or main residence and the same will apply to properties which are used as domestic refuges.

[lingmoor]

Anyway...Schedule 14 of the Housing Act 2004 exempts NHS residences from being classed as a HMO for the purpose of te Act

good init