Author Topic: Change of rank/role markings?  (Read 69125 times)

Offline Matt Akers

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Change of rank/role markings?
« on: August 26, 2005, 02:14:52 PM »
With the change in helmet markings laid down by the OPDM, does this mean the shirt ranking will change? If so what are the Sub O going to have on there shoulders?
The changes to the helmets are as follows:

Station Officer (as normal, white hat, black stripe)
Sub O (White helmet, black stripe. The same as the station officers)
LFF (Yellow helmets with two stripes, like the old Sub O markings)
FF (Stay the same)
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Offline fireftrm

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Change of rank/role markings?
« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2005, 05:31:20 PM »
The FSC states that role insignia is for PPE only, this does rather suggest that there is no insignia for non-operational PPE so what shirt markings?

Mine, as with many other services have removed any markings

PS Matt you are wrong about the markings being for the ranks as you show they are for ROLES:


Watch Manager - white 12.5mm band
Crew Manager - yellow 2x12.5mm band

This means that whether you have changed depends on whether your watch managers were StnO or SubO. The crew manager on a two pump stn may have been a SubO, now WM(A) for pay purposes, but will likley be a CM under r2r and be on pay protection. Thus the correct role insignia is CM. The real question is about the LFf, are they CMs or Ffs really?

Also this corrects an inequality in the status (and hopefully the pay in time) of those SubO watch managers, especially where they have been in charge of two+ pump watches compared to their StnO peers in other FRS. There are many examples of SubOs in charge in one service and a StnO in the adjoining, but with the same levels of responsibility. The best example I have seen is Leamington Spa, Warks, where a SubO is in charge of a watch at a multi-pump and specials station, and down the road WMFRS have StnOs at simple 2 pump stns.............

This was a FSC in MArch 2004
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Offline Matt Akers

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Change of rank/role markings?
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2005, 01:22:37 PM »
Sorry, meant role. Been speaking to a few people in Kent FRS. All Sub O (in old money) are getting white helmets just like the station officers. On the fire ground you will not be able to know who is a Sub or who is a Station officer (watch manager or station manager in new terms)
Maybe I have the wrong end of the big stick. Just , don’t know why they have to keep changing things when it is not going to make a big difference.
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Offline Lee999

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Change of rank/role markings?
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2005, 02:23:35 PM »
Fireftrm,

There is guidence for rank/role markings.

Crew manager = 2 bars (formerly Sub o)
Watch manager = 2 Impellers (formerly Stn O)

This insignia may be worn on work-rig as well as PPE collers.

For info, my Brigade withdrew rank markings some months ago, and are now re-inroducing them. Probably as above.

Lee

Matt, I agree, change for change sake is never a good thing. How much do these new white helmets we are meant to be wearing cost nationally?

Offline fireftrm

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Change of rank/role markings?
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2005, 05:14:34 PM »
Station Officer is Watch Manager if that is their role, as would a SubO be, if they are flexi-duty then they are now Station Manager - which is 19mm band (as per old rank of ADO)

Lee

The FSC does not state what 'rank' is now the role it simply gives the role insignia. I am more than aware what the role insignia would have meant had they been rank markings, but they are not. They are ROLE INSIGNIA and the FSC says - FOR PPE ONLY, nowhere does it say on working rig or undress uniform.

Only those FRS who had SubOs in charge of watches have to buy white helmets, those who had StnO riders don't need to change anything.

Remember that rank to role is now agreed and therefore there are no ranks, the FSC gives no guidance for rank/role markings as there are no ranks and the FSC was a ROLE INSIGNIA notification. The role someone is presently being paid at is only due to the pay assimilation point they were put on at the end of the dispute. Now comes the assessment of the role they are in. The previously ranked SubO with a StnO rider as was, will almost certainly be a Crew Manager, no matter that they will be presently on Watch Manager A pay. After the role has been determined they will be on WM A pay for another three years, but will be in a CM role. As I said where that leaves some LFfs is in doubt as will there be two CMs on a 2 pump stn?

I have heard that role insignia may be extended to other items of clothing, but that is still a chinese whisper. My FRS withdrew rank markings 5 years ago, we cannot replace them as they no longer exist, we may introduce role insignia should this become a national policy, it presently is not.

Matt

You will be able to see who is a Watch Manager - white 12.5mm and who the Station Manager - white 19mm. You won't know what their prior rank was, but as there are no ranks and only roles why would you want to? It is the role that now matters.

The previously ranked StnO will only have changed to 19mm if they are flexi-duty as they are a WM otherwise.

This does correct some long term inequities between the higher-ranked services and their lower cousins. Here every watch commander was a SubO, there are many FRS where the same job attracted a StnO rank. That was never fair and was often based on the amount of money the FRS had. Mow you will be in the role these wrongs should be righted. What is clear is that those of us who have been spending less on our wage bills (by having lower ranks throughout in comparison to some) will be those having to buy the most new white helmets!

The choiceof white/12.5mm for WM was probably so as to placate the StnO riders who were now being classed as WMs..........

Out of interest is has cost us nothing (in real terms) to replace all the yellow helmets with white as the returned ones have since been isssued to new joiners.

Another example of an inequality - all our station managers are SM A (previously StnO flexi) many services had ADO station commanders who have ended up as GM A, or SM B seemingly dependent on the wealth of the FRS - so this should be another area that r2r assessments corrects.
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Offline Lee999

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Change of rank/role markings?
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2005, 05:44:14 PM »
Fireftrm

Your self opinionated, abrasive and aggesive style of communication, i'm afraid does yourself and your Brigade no credit.

Whether or not you personally are aware of the situation, some Brigades are using Rank/Role markings on workrig uniform. This has proved a popular desision at all levels within our service. I support the decision.

Lighten up, relax and try to be nice to people. People may not always agree with you, does'nt mean they are wrong.

Offline Paul

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Change of rank/role markings?
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2005, 06:07:49 PM »
Lee999,

I think the way in which fireftrm put the case across was simply factual.  Nothing else, and the problem with the way we all now communiacte on forums, email etc the sentiement does not always come across as intended.

I think it is you that has the sole intention of coming onto this forum to bate people.  Maybe it is you who should take it easy and chill out a little.  

Everyone likes a debate and a colourfu exchange of banter, but then I don't think this is really your aim is it.

Offline Lee999

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Change of rank/role markings?
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2005, 06:30:04 PM »
p

Thanks for the reply. Very useful. Far be from me to rattle the cage of the old boys network.
 
Lets keep this forum realistic, lets talk about issues that are relevent to our profession, not just you an four or five of your "mates".

Lee

Offline fireftrm

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Change of rank/role markings?
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2005, 06:55:15 PM »
Lee999 - mine was, as Paul rightly says, plainly and simply factual.


As I have the occasion to meet with other FRS around the country regularly I am extremely well aware that other FRS are still wearing either rank markings, or have adopted role insignia. Indded in my neighbouring FRS one uses rank markings (well did until last week and now r2r is here I haven't yet checked whether they have moved to role insignia) another two, role insignia all on their undress uniforms. That does nothing to change the FACt that the FSC states that role insignia is just for PPE. I happen to personally think that we should have them on all our uniform and PPE. I also simply stated that my FRS doesn't use them and hasn't for some time. When they become a national use on other than PPE we will no doubt return to having some insignia on non-PPE, but again what I stated was the facts. You had said that the guidance states "This insignia may be worn on work-rig as well as PPE collers" (sic). I was correcting that.

I must also agree with Paul (whom I have never met and whom I presently simply consider to be a colleague on here not, as yet, a "mate") about it being you who is needing to chill.

The issue that is being discussed is extremely relevant to our profession and what I have said is factual - from your comments to Dave Bev you appear to be in the dark on r2r so please lighten up and take what I have written as nothing more than a factual account. I think it is you and your FRS that are being done a misservice as you seem not to have fully appreciated r2r. I am not trying to be opinionated,  nor, do I believe was my post aggresive just honest and practical.
My posts reflect my personal views and beliefs and not those of my employer. If I offend anyone it is usually unintentional, please be kind. If it is intentional I guess it will be clear!

Offline Paul

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Change of rank/role markings?
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2005, 06:56:13 PM »
Lee,

this too applies to you.  Everyone has the opportunity to discuss any fire safety / operational / techno / general bull.

If you feel the forum is too restrictive open it up a little.

I think you'll always find someone on here that will be more than glad to help.

Offline Matt Akers

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Change of rank/role markings?
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2005, 02:09:03 PM »
I only asked about Subs helmets in Kent going over to white hats!! Didn’t realise it was going to turn into hand bags at dawn. All I know it that the stores man/ladies in Kent have got a huge pallet load of white helmets that look very much like a station officers helmet. All these new helmets are going to be issued to all subs. That’s it.
As far as rank and role, in my eyes and only mine, it should stay the same as it has always been FF, LFF, Sub O’s and so on. On the fire ground when the poo holes are twitching you ask for the Subo in charge or the Station officer, not which crew or watch Manager is in charge. I’m not saying change is bad, we have to accept and embrace changes to move on. I see it as, the more toys the better.
But why change something that is not going to have a lot of affect. Maybe I have some old school in me. Soon they will ban the word Guv because it does not fit into the correct role!!!
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Offline fireftrm

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Change of rank/role markings?
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2005, 06:44:16 PM »
Umm now what role would the Guv callers refer to now, I wonder. At least we don't have that problem outside the SE.

Roles are her now so remember that SubO StnO etc don't exist and the helmets refer to the role. Interesting whether they will be taking back those that have been isssued to SubO (as was) on WM A pay assimilation once their roles have been determined as CM, or will they be holding out until that determination has been done?

Do you have ex-SubO Watch Managers in KEnt? Maybe single pump stns, assuming you had StnO (as was) WMs at some? If so then those ex-SubO WMs should be the only ex-SubOs getting WM helmets, surely?
My posts reflect my personal views and beliefs and not those of my employer. If I offend anyone it is usually unintentional, please be kind. If it is intentional I guess it will be clear!

Offline dave bev

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Change of rank/role markings?
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2005, 07:52:23 PM »
fred karno couldnt have planned it better

dave bev

Offline Andy Cole

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Change of rank/role markings?
« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2005, 08:00:50 PM »
By the time you've been flying down the road in the back of the pump the helmets are in a pile on the floor and noone cares whose they've got on any way do they? When you discuss it I just get a comical scene in my head.... I can see everyone squabbaling over how thick the stripe on thier helmet is and forgetting about the job in hand!

Sorry I realise there is a serious point in what your discussing!

Offline colin todd

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Change of rank/role markings?
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2005, 09:57:11 PM »
I am just so impressed that the FBU know how to spell Karno. Most people get it wrong (as in Carnot, etc). As always, Davey, you go even further up in my estimation, even though you have, as yet, neither rank nor role.
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates