Change of rank/role markings?

[docfin]

I serve in Kent and I can tell you that my Sub doesnt want a white helmet cos it means that no one (apart from other white helmets and how dull are they) will want to talk to him at fires any more.
Sorry to lower the tone.

[Andy Cole]

I got the feeling on a recent 7 pump property fire that the White helmets are almost beginning to out number the yellow ones anyway!

[rips]

Can anyone confirm the new markings ( helmet and and any insignia) all the way up to Brigade manager?
Thanks for your help

[fireftrm]

Yep:


From DCOL 5/2004 Item C:

With the growing need for cross border operations, particularly in the context of New Dimension, it is expected that all UK Fire and Rescue Services will follow the same Role identification system. It is important to be able to identify the senior fire and rescue service officer present, particularly for fire and rescue crews and other emergency services or agencies attending the incident.

It is considered that the present helmet markings and collar insignia provide an effective solution being easily identifiable and interpreted. In moving to a role-based system the following insignia applies only to operational Personal Protective Equipment [PPE] and is considered to be the most cost effective and appropriate method of identification.


Fire-fighter

Helmet:          Plain yellow fire helmet.
Collar:            No marking.


Crew Manager

Helmet:          Two 12.5mm black bands with 12.5mm separation on a yellow fire helmet.
Collar:            Two 12.5mm silver bars with 12.5mm separation.


Watch Manager

Helmet:          One 12.5mm black band on a white helmet with a black comb.
Collar:            Two large impellers.

Station manager

Helmet:          One 19mm black band on a white helmet with a black comb.
Collar:            Three large impellers.



Group Manager

Helmet;          One 19mm black band surmounted by one 12.5mm black band with 12.5mm separation on                                    
                       a white helmet with a black comb.
Collar:            One large impeller surrounded with a laurel wreath.


Area Manager

Helmet:          Two 19mm black bands with 12.5mm separation on a white helmet with a black comb.
Collar:            One large impeller surrounded with a laurel wreath with one 3mm bar below.



Brigade Manager

Helmet:          One 38mm black band on a white helmet with a black comb.
Collar:            The existing rank markings will be used.

MY NOTE: (whatever your FRS may be doing) the part that states

applies only to operational Personal Protective Equipment [PPE]

so these role insignia are for fire kit ONLY.

[rips]

Thanks very much. guessed it would be you coming up with the answer. I mean that in a nice way. Thanks again

[costaltaff]

The brigade I serve in have just issued corporate uniform. This now means that everyone from cleaners(no disrespect) to office staff to senior officers all wear the same bland 'get-up'. This of course is worn with no role markings as are our fire tunics. Our Chief calls himself the chief executive.

[neal pick gmcusar]

so how do you know who is in charge? or does the loudest voice win all.

[fireftrm]

Costa and neal - we did the same about 5 years ago. We have never worn markings on our tunics anyway so we have always relied on the helmet marking. Still works.

Out of PPE we manage quite well, the person in charge, if you wish to use that experession, is the one who allocates manages. Just like many other jobs.........how do you tell the manager in a factory, because they wear a different marked tie? No. How about the manager at Nissan, where they all wear the same? No markings there either.

As an aside when I was a newly promoted LFf I was on a visit, leading  my crew, when a member of staff at the premises asked what the bar meant. A quick witted crew member said 'oh, that's to show he is a new member and needs supervision'. They believed it and I got tea, biscuits and sympathy from the office staff while they had to carry out the inspection, slight backfire on the Ff. So role markings needed except on the incident ground? No.

[rips]

Could not agree more. Tyne & Wear do not have insignia on tunics.
I am sure when we finally go rank to role we will ditch the insignia on undress uniform like our neighbours have already done.

[Cut Fire Service Pay]

Once again IPDS rank to role to nonsense strikes again! We can just about put up with being called managers but what a waste of time and money changing helmet rank markings. I be-grudged giving up my perfectly good old cairns metro helmet for a new cromwell because it was a waste of cash.  This whole issue is daft! Lets just keep the same helmets, do the modernisation bit and spend the money on some new road cones or hoses or something of use. This is actualy the first I have heard of these new rank markings. Incidently, what do we call an Lff or a SubO on the fire ground now? Is it people friendly first name terms now and do we have to have a group hug before each tour of duty?

[costaltaff]

Well said Pete. Stations are in a poor state of repair in my brigade and yet the urgency is for all orders of white helmets and role markings to be sent in asap.

[fireftrm]

Quote Pete: what a waste of time and money changing helmet rank markings. I be-grudged giving up my perfectly good old cairns metro helmet for a new cromwell because it was a waste of cash.  This whole issue is daft! Lets just keep the same helmets, do the modernisation bit and spend the money on some new road cones or hoses or something of use. This is actualy the first I have heard of these new rank markings. Incidently, what do we call an Lff or a SubO on the fire ground now?

Pete: The change to a different helmet had NOTHING to do with IPDS or rank to role - SURELY! That must have been a decision to improve the safety of the staff as the latter helemt is to a higher safety spec? For us the chnage to role insignia on PPE has cost basically nothing. For a start the helmet manufacturer has NEVER been determined by IPDS or role!!!!!!!!!  Some people are so afraid of change they make up irrational arguments against it to suits themseleves, don't become one.
As to the purchase of WHITE helemts for some - this is completely different and ONLY applies to those where the WM is a SubO - bringing those services where they had SubOs in charge of watches into line with those who had rider StnOs. In my FRS this cost NOTHING as the new white helemts we issued resulted in the smae number of yellow ones being returend. These are used to satisfy replacements, or ne w issue, to Ffs and CMs. Thus it may have SEEMED a cost, but over a period was not. A bit of black insulating tape for the CMs who need a second stripe is not going to break any banks (even if high quality gloss 12.5mm tape one roll will normally do an entire FRS and I can supply it to them for around 99p should they want!)

To the issue of what you call previous ranks on the incident ground - it depends uopon their new role. A LFf is likley to be a CM, the SubO could be a Cm or a WM - usualy a CM where they were the deputy to a StnO rider (who is the WM) - seems quite straightforward - look at my list above.

It is disappointing (to say the least) that there are personnel in the FRS who have no prior knowledge of this. It was clear in the 2003 pay agreement that roles were here to stay and well documented before. The role insignia FS Circular was issued in March 2004 too!

As to 'just about put up with being called managers' - what a prehistoric picture you paint of yourself, what else should we be called? Officer is a fine 'title' but a manager shows what we really do, or do you not manage people and simply rely on some scramled egg to allow you to ORDER staff around?

Costa - your FRS is certainly costalot if it is allowing role marking replacements for rank markings, why do they not read the FSC and ditch them? White helmets should (as I demonstrate above) not have any medium term cost implications at all and for some FRS none short term (As they had StnO rider WMs anyway).

[Cut Fire Service Pay]

I realise helmet markings and designs had nothing to do with IPDS. My grudge was with the point of it all and the cost. Ok you maybe able to off-set issuing new ones with returning others but it still all seams a waste of time. Im all for change, I just can't stick all this endless management speak. So what your saying about a Lf being a crew manager is instead of calling him/her Lf I now addres them as 'crew manager'? I don't think its going to work. I am all for sensible change but it seems to be change for change sake and not much for the benefit of the service. I wouldn't regard myself as prehistoric, just very cautious about where the 'modernising' fire service is going. (along with many others)

As for my new Cromwell helmet, it maybe a higher spec but it spends more time in my hand or on the floor than it does on my head. I can't hear properly in it and its just to dam bulky. My old metro stayed on my head all of the time, most of the lads are the same. It also looks like it was bought in toys 'R' us!

[fireftrm]

We have had quite a few who say it doesn't fit and falls off - all (and I mean all) those who I have seen have the forehead strap tucked level with the edge of the helemt, it seems they came like that. It should be adjusted to be visible and across the forehead, worn up ONLY when wearing a BA mask. try that - worked every time here - more comfortable too.

As to calling the LFf Crew Manager, it will work, because that is what they are! They are not LFfs any longer (that is maybe in the short term until your FRS does r2r). Perhaps shouting "LF" seemed easy, but then why not "CM"? After all I am sure shouting "LF" seemed strange to you when you first joined? In a similar vein I hear people shouting "Sub", so why not "Watch/Crew"? Examples from outside the FRS abound - we do not shout "Sarnt" but the army seem to manage!

PS (excepting those where the StnO rider existed - and some of them may still use the SE 'guv') Station would be a good 'new' name for the SM (ex flexi StnO)?

[Paul]

If you think the new Cromwell helmets are bad you should try the Gallet heklmets.  They provide excellent protection in fire scenarios, although you have to have it set to wear BA, which leaves it far too loose for other incidents.  There's do much movement that wearing the built in safety glasses could snap your beek clean off.