Author Topic: Change of rank/role markings?  (Read 69122 times)

Offline costaltaff

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Change of rank/role markings?
« Reply #30 on: October 16, 2005, 06:10:27 PM »
Also find that your hearing is impaired with the Gallet helmet.

Offline Paul

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Change of rank/role markings?
« Reply #31 on: October 16, 2005, 08:26:50 PM »
pardon?

Offline fireftrm

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Change of rank/role markings?
« Reply #32 on: October 17, 2005, 10:09:02 AM »
IS the Gallet that difficult to change form normal to BA wear settings? The Cromwell takes around 2 seconds to alter (timed - but then it probably took a second to say go and stop!)
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Offline Paul

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Change of rank/role markings?
« Reply #33 on: October 17, 2005, 09:27:18 PM »
Oh yes Firey,

I think its a little better these days, but the original took 1 firefighter who had been trained by the suppliers 20 minutes.  Generally it is only practical to have the Gallet in BA setting.  

You can turn your head inside it without undoing it.

Offline fireftrm

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Change of rank/role markings?
« Reply #34 on: October 18, 2005, 08:59:13 AM »
Oh for the Anglo-Saxon Cromwell and less gallic trouble!
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Offline dave bev

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Change of rank/role markings?
« Reply #35 on: October 18, 2005, 03:47:37 PM »
i always found those benevolent fund helmets pretty useful. they were a lot cheaper, a lot lighter therefore ensuring neck injuries and transmited back injuries were kept to a minimum and perhaps best of all because they tended to melt near heat it kept firefighters away from dangerous fires!

you never saw many of them in white though did you. is that because children didnt aspire to being the 'boss' - although if that is the case why are some children now at the pinnacles of management of some uk f&r services, is it because they have never grown up or is it because they dont give a toss about reliability so long as they look good?


dave bev

Offline bravo_whisky

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Change of rank/role markings?
« Reply #36 on: June 29, 2006, 01:25:48 PM »
Hi all, I'm a bit of a late starter here so please bear with me.

For all the rights and wrongs of Rank-to-Role it's here and it seems that FRS are going to have to learn to live with it.

It seems odd to me that the concept of rank-markings (sorry, ROLE-markings!) wasn't considered as an integral part of this process. Clearly it seems that there is a politcal will to try to remove the "paramilitary" appearance of FRS members that would put all managers in civilian business suits and operational members in undifferentiated working kit when not in PPE.

This seriously neglects the fact that, even with the move to roles, there is nevertheless an operational hierarchy and a genuine need to be able to recognise seniority of leadership within the organisation as well as on the incident ground. FRS *are* uniformed services and the public accept that. Other services need to be able to identify senior officers (I suppose we should call them managers now!). I don't see the police giving up their rank-markings anytime soon and although NHS ambulance services can be a bit variable as to what's actually worn (they've had exactly the same problems as FRS in this regard), the same general principles seem to apply.

If rank/role-markings are a desirable thing to have then surely it would make sense to try to have a scheme that is easy to follow for all FRS members and also intuitive to members of other services outside the FRS. What we have at the moment seems to be a bastardised scheme that retains some of the old rank-markings and fudges them a little bit with the new roles. My guess is that, at a National level, the great and the good are trying to work out how to fit the square peg of operational role recognition into the round hole of the all-new, non-paramilitary FRS. In time, I suspect that an all-new new and updated scheme of markings will be released, along with copious guidelines as to exactly how and where these should be used and applied! I for one have no problem with some form of role-marking being used on working kit. Let's face it, in many FRS the standard working rig for all roles is now the same for all members, with the addition of small clip-on collar patches where required. I see no reason why that couldn't continue.

On a side note, whether or not the full Undress Uniform, complete with tunic and cap (plus embellishments!) continues to be used in the long-term remains to be seen. I suspect that the current undress uniforms will ultimately vanish entirely (think of the cost savings... !). Personally, I don't see why it shouldn't be retained for use on formal occaisions when representing one's service; uniform clearly *would* be appropriate attire but working kit would also clearly be inappropriate. That's why I've continued to include these additional details in the proposals for now.

My intention was to NOT follow the new guidelines directly but to come up with what was essentially a whole new system, although I wanted one that was derived from existing traditional elements and would therefore be recognisable and understandable. I decided to use the "impeller" as the basic emblem of role as this is uniquely identified with FRS. Given the changes in R2R, it seemed reasonable to have a simple, integrated, sequential system that began at the bottom and worked its way up in simple, obvious steps. For example, the use of TWO bars for "crew manager" seemed a little pointless given that there was no longer a need to differentiate such an individual from someone wearing ONE bar - hence my use of a single impeller instead.

My suggestion would be to have the markings for Area Manager as [large impeller & wreath + one small impeller]. I believe this makes for a more obvious sequential progression from Group Manager to Brigade Manager than the current guidelines suggest, although AM should probably have plain silver peak embroidery and no lapel insignia, where caps and tunics are worn.

I've only shown one set of markings for Brigade Manager but, assuming that there should be *some* differentiation within this role between the BOSS (Chief Executive or however titled, where operational) and the "assistant" brigade managers (essentially the old DCFO and ACFO posts lumped together) then it might be appropriate for individuals in these two "sub-roles" to wear slightly different markings. One possibility would be to give the "assistant" brigade managers [large impeller & wreath + TWO small impellers] and to give the BOSS [large impeller & wreath + THREE small impellers]. This would be the most obvious way to maintain a simple progression of markings without adding in extra elements like "bars." For completeness, I would continue to associate these with the traditional cap embellishments of silver oak-leaves (thistles in Scotland) using one and two rows respectively. Lapel insignia would continue to be differentiated in the same way as the old rank insignia.

Anyway, these are my own thoughts - they're not a million miles from the current usage but I've tried to pull it all together into a new, integrated structure that modernises the old rank scheme but also retains the best of the recognisable traditional elements. I apologise if the images are a bit large.

The helmet markings would be reflective and the black comb for white helmets would no longer be essential as the red bands are now specific to each role, without overlap (no danger of mistaking Stn O for LFf, as was). I have deliberately used a VERY non-specific helmet shape as I realise that there are loads of designs and manufacturers out there but I hope you can see the general idea. I'll post a better version when I can.

Please feel free to comment - if you're interested, I can up-date this to take account of your suggestions.

Is this the sort of thing you feel FRS should be aiming to have?




Offline fireftrm

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Change of rank/role markings?
« Reply #37 on: July 03, 2006, 12:27:31 PM »
It is worth looking at the link tot he national uniform project:

Please find attached a link to the on-line questionnaire, penetrating to operational firefighters views on the stationwear and undress/ceremonial wear design solutions offered by the Tenderers. Could you please circulate this link amongst the Brigades in your region.

This link will also be sent nationally to the Chief Fire Officers Association, Fire Officers Association, Retained Firefighters Union, Fire Brigades Union, and Networking Women in the Fire Service. Please be aware that the closing date for entry on this website is June 3rd.

The questionnaire is for the attention of wholetime and retained operational firefighters only.

 The link is:

http://www.icp-surveys.com

It has role insignia................

Also there was a DCOL in March 2004 detailing role insignia DCOL 5/2004
My posts reflect my personal views and beliefs and not those of my employer. If I offend anyone it is usually unintentional, please be kind. If it is intentional I guess it will be clear!

Offline bravo_whisky

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Change of rank/role markings?
« Reply #38 on: July 03, 2006, 01:14:00 PM »
Yes, I read the circular and I agree that it works for now. I guess it just struck me as a fudged job to "make do" for the moment. I realise that in part this has a lot to do with the issue of utilising and re-distributing existing markings and helmets to minimise the initial cost impact on FRS budgets! It seemed that for the longer term, there was an opportunity here to develop an all-new and slightly more logical system that better fitted the "seven roles" and was also uniquely identified with them alone rather than continuing to use old rank markings that seemed to perpetuate the difficulties of "is this an old SubO made up to Watch Manager (A) or previous rider StnO...?" or "isn't he a non-rider StnO who's now Station Manager (A) not an ADO...?"

Thanks for the link, although it now seems to be off-line. If you feel it's appropriate, and if you're able to, would you mind pasing my thoughts on?

The updated picture below is now more or less what I had in mind. I wouldn't be too surprised if my suggestions for the markings for the Brigade Manager role were replaced by the old CFO and DCFO insignia; but then I guess that would work just as well.

The helmet stripes and spacings essentially use current dimensions. Use of reflective red markings seems a more modern approach than plain black and also highlights the change to a new scheme of role-markings but I guess this system would still work perfectly well with black stripes instead of red, plus the old black combs for white helmets. Alternatively, there's even the possibility of reflective red stripes with reflective red combs if you felt like being daring...?!

My apologies to those of you who don't like the Gallets...!



Offline fireftrm

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Change of rank/role markings?
« Reply #39 on: July 05, 2006, 11:59:03 AM »
Your ideal of the single band for CM begs the question of why there is a need for this to be yellow, or for any of the others to be white...................

A sensible replacement for what we have, not having the bars and starting at one, not two, does make great logic, so it can't work!
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Offline bravo_whisky

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Change of rank/role markings?
« Reply #40 on: July 05, 2006, 02:06:58 PM »
LOL! Yeah, too much like common sense? I guess I should know better...!

I fully agree with your comments about helmet colour too! The point at which you could change from yellow to white (if at all) is, I guess, pretty arbitrary. I suppose I only kept it like that cos (a) it's kinda recognisable and marks out the Watch Manager as the leading role within what would usually be each operational unit and (b) it's a little bit traditional (which, I admit, goes against my stated aim, but there you go!). There are loads of potential variants but the obvious options are:

(1) as above.
(2) minor variation from above, just to bring the Crew Manager role into white so that all the "magager" roles are the same.
(3) a similar minor change but keeping all WATCH-based members in YELLOW, so that white only begins with the Station Manager role.
(3) all roles in white.
(4) all roles in yellow.
(5) something radically different like, say, all roles in red with white or yellow reflective stripes instead.
 
Red would certainly be new and different but it's a darker colour and therefore less visible at night, especially under sodium street lighting where there's a risk it'll just appear black. This may be less relevant these days with high-conspicuity PPE and with retroreflective tape on fire kit and hi-viz vests. The other factor, of course, is that sticking with white and yellow would obviously be cheaper than wholesale change so that's another argument in it's favour. Thinking about it in the light of my original aim, and trying to maintain a logical progression, I guess the two most likely options would be (2) or (3). The main problem I can foresee with (3) is that these helmet markings could lead some folks to associate the WM and CM roles with the old SubO and LFf ranks, which isn't really the idea [see below]. That therefore whittles it down to (2) as the sensible choice for a new, logical sequence.


The various patterns would look like this:

Option (5) - a bit way out there, and pretty unlikely!


Option (3) - I think this works, although I have reservations about how it would be received.


Option (2) - probably the most obvious solution.



Finally, here's just *one more* concept that incorporates a bit of all of the above ideas. It looks a bit American or even European which, I admit, may tend to put a few people off but it's certainly all-new. Essentially, this scheme differentiates both "station-based" management roles and "senior" management roles and is in no way directly comparable to any of the old rank markings as the numbers and proportions of the bands have changed a little too: one impeller = one thin band; impeller + wreath = one thick band, and so on. This is rather different to what's gone before, but it would make the different roles pretty obvious and also very easy to spot, even at some distance.

I absolutely *promise* I'll stop posting huge images now - it's just that a picture is much easier to take in than a long, wordy description would be!


Offline Firewolf

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Change of rank/role markings?
« Reply #41 on: July 06, 2006, 10:47:42 AM »
Im old fashioned...prefer the old titles keep the ranks as tehy are - rename them if possible but maintainthe current undress rank insignia.

Crew Manager or Crew commander - which is it? At some FRS in the UK a Sub Off is a Crew Manager whilst on station then Crew Commander on the fire ground. This is all a bit silly!

I dont like words like "Manager" I prefer "commander" or "officer" because the word itself leans to an operational hands on role and not a desk piloting role - and nope Ive nothing against white collar workers but you may see my point!

A Cheif Officer calling him/ herself "Cheif Exec" is seemingly causing confusion with the public too.

What on earth was this excercise all about? If it isnt broke why fix it?

I
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Offline bravo_whisky

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Change of rank/role markings?
« Reply #42 on: July 06, 2006, 11:53:32 AM »
In many ways, I agree - I thought the original purpose of defining the seven "roles" (and assigning names to them) was about *describing* what a person in that "role" actually did, rather than the rank that they held - I'm sure this has been discussed above or in a different thread, probably both! Having a National standard also only works if it's applied Nationally (!) and at the moment it does sound like there's still a huge amount of local variation. Some sort of overhaul of the career structure was long overdue; having a better framework to assess the skills and attributes needed to progress to subsequent jobs and also a system that better allows members to acquire those abilites is no bad thing - if it's implemented properly and if everyone understands what's happening and how it all works! Change is always unsettling but there is the opportunity for something positive here as well.

The role descriptions are really only just that - I'm sure they should never have been implemented directly as titles of relative grade. I therefore agree with you that they're just NOT the most "snappy" of titles; they may *describe* the "role" perfectly well (which is what they were intended to do), and this is fine for a paper exerise or a job-description, but they're pretty damn clunky when it comes to day-to-day use. Having said that, changing between "manager" and "commander" depending on whether you're on or off station, or the time of day or whether there's a R in the month just seems pointless - who thought THAT up?! Equally, if you were being pedantic, "Crew Manager" is, in reality, actually more of a supervisory role than a truly managerial role - but would "Crew Supervisor" or even "Team Leader" have been any better? I don't think so...

Remember, however, that just because these individuals are wearing two bars and two black bands on a yellow helmet, they are NOT sub-officers! Whether we like it or not, this is now the "role-marking" for a Crew Manager, not a Sub-Officer! That's one of the primary reasons why I believe it was a mistake to continue to use the old uniform rank insignia for the new roles: this kind of confusion was inevitable and could easily have been avoided if the roles of Crew Manager and Watch Manager in particular had been given distinct new markings of their own that weren't just a direct re-use of the old Sub-Officer and Station Officer rank insignia. I'm not saying that my suggestions are the only idea that would work but I put them forward to stimulate debate and get people to think about what *would* work. As I've said, my own feeling is that if you're going to introduce that sort of change then be imaginative and review the whole system and come up with a cohesive, logical system that covers ALL the roles.

For the other roles, I guess "Area Manager" and "Group Manager" just about work as generic descriptions: they could be applied to an "area" of service provision or managing a "group" of staff in a specialist branch of the service (e.g. fire prevention) as well as referring to groups of operational stations or management of geographical areas but any of the primarily watch-based grades run into the problem that, as descriptions, they make no sense once you try to apply them to jobs that aren't directly involved in day-to-day operational fire-fighting. In areas like Emergency Planning, Support Services, Fire Prevention, etc., "Station Manager" is an entirely pointless description - because that's actually NOT the individual's *role*! In the past, "Assistant Divisional Officer" was a suitably generic title of "grade" that effectively described the relative seniority of the individual - but was not tied to the specific post that they held - which is what the role titles should do.

Again, I'm sure this is all part of the political will to "de-militarise" the FRS. The bottom line, though, is that it's here to stay. Changes is happening and you can either try to influence that change or be carried along by it. It seems to me that if *firefighters* across the UK want to have any sort of influence on how things work, what their job titles are and what the different grades wear (as minor as these things are in the grand scheme of things) then they need to be pro-active and think about what they want!
_________________________________________________

On a lighter note, a mate of mine came up with an Army equivalent of Rank-to Role and another colleague, who's a bit of a senior TA bod (Lieutenant-Colonel, I think), saw it and said "F*** me! Don't show that to the MoD...!!"

(1)  Soldier
(2)  Section Manager
(3)  Platoon Manager (A- or B- depending on size of unit)
(4)  Company Manager (A- or B- depending on size of unit)
(5)  Battalion Manager (A- or B- depending on size of unit)
(6)  Brigade Manager (A- or B- depending on size of unit)
(7)  Army Manager (current General Officer rank insignia to be retained for the time being)

Offline Firewolf

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Change of rank/role markings?
« Reply #43 on: July 06, 2006, 02:33:56 PM »
heheh I like it

You are abosultely right Bravo Whiskey - change can be for the better - Im probably a bit old fashioned in that I always feel the Brigade sorry the service should retain it's militarised titles. :o)

But I do agree the rank system had to be modernised, simplified etc

The crazy thing is that after modernisation my brigade has doubled its amount of Div Officers - well I say Div Officers I mean Borough Commanders and area commanders etc. or what ever it is they call themseleves now ! :o)
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Offline Cut Fire Service Pay

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Change of rank/role markings?
« Reply #44 on: July 10, 2006, 11:08:33 PM »
I've said it before on this forum, whats the point of rank to role and how much is this costing the service?

The whole rank to role & 'modernisation' process has left me and countless others fed up un-interested and depressed!! Just before I left my old brigade[to remain nameless for thier sake] to join the DFS, I didn't know who was who, who did what and who my divisional commander was!! I have recently left my local retained station for similar reasons.

What happened to the fire service? What was the point?