Approved Document B (B5)

[Bruce89]

Can anyone tell me where the requirement that appliances should not have to reverse more than 20 metres originates from?

[kurnal]

Assuming you are talking about England and Wales it probably originated in Home Office Fire Prevention Note 1/70 before being incorporated into the Building Regulations Approved Document B in 1991. It may also incoprorated in some local Acts applicable prior to 1991, there was also a planning guide for housing developments (cant remember the title) that refers to it.

[wee brian]

Para 16.11, Diagram 50 in the current edition of AD B

[Bruce89]

Thanks Brian but I meant not where it is now stated, but where does it originate from?

Thanks Kurnal but it appears at the moment  judging by you stating "probably", no one can give a definite answer...yet!

[kurnal]

I am 95% certain it was specifically mentioned in HO FP1/70 but cant find a copy to confirm!

But it is clear that prior to 1 June 1992 there were no legal requirements under Building Regulations regarding provision of access for fire appliances. However it was recommended in accordance with FP Note 1/70, Dear Chief Officer letter 6/76, the contemporary manual of firemanship Book 8, The Town and Country Planning Act and some Local Acts.

Theres a few lines of enquiry available there if you have time and inclination. I have been unable to find a copy of 1/70 in Government archives online. I have a hard copy but its in my filing system (joke)  somewhere and I cant put my hands on it.

[Mike Buckley]

It may be a tale similar to the Glasgow evacuation time, but the story I heard was that the 20m limit was based on 25 yards which was about as far as you could get a horse to reverse in the day of the horse drawn pumps! Not sure of the accuracy but a good tale.

[wee brian]

There are various plausible explanations, but nothing that you would call evidence.

[nearlythere]

It may be a tale similar to the Glasgow evacuation time, but the story I heard was that the 20m limit was based on 25 yards which was about as far as you could get a horse to reverse in the day of the horse drawn pumps! Not sure of the accuracy but a good tale.

Sounds plausible alright.

[John Webb]

I am 95% certain it was specifically mentioned in HO FP1/70 but cant find a copy to confirm!

But it is clear that prior to 1 June 1992 there were no legal requirements under Building Regulations regarding provision of access for fire appliances. However it was recommended in accordance with FP Note 1/70, Dear Chief Officer letter 6/76, the contemporary manual of firemanship Book 8, The Town and Country Planning Act and some Local Acts.

Theres a few lines of enquiry available there if you have time and inclination. I have been unable to find a copy of 1/70 in Government archives online. I have a hard copy but its in my filing system (joke)  somewhere and I cant put my hands on it.

The 1974 MoF Book 8, Chapter 12 on access for appliances, does say that the FP Note 1/70 contains HO recommendations for appliance access. It also says that the 1974 H&S @Work would have powers regarding access, and it was expected that Building Regs would have their scope extended accordingly. Curiously the MoF says nothing about reversing distances!

[Bruce89]

Thanks to all for your replies

[Dinnertime Dave]

It may be a tale similar to the Glasgow evacuation time, but the story I heard was that the 20m limit was based on 25 yards which was about as far as you could get a horse to reverse in the day of the horse drawn pumps! Not sure of the accuracy but a good tale.

I'm with you Mike, that's the tail I heard too.

[colin todd]

For God's sake Buckers, the evacuation time came from Edinburgh not Glasgow. Sheesh, English people and their geography.

[nearlythere]

For God's sake Buckers, the evacuation time came from Edinburgh not Glasgow. Sheesh, English people and their geography.

Is that Edinburgh the capital of Wales outside London?)

[mevans421]

I think its the furthest distance that a fireman can drive backwards without denting the truck!

[Mike Buckley]

For God's sake Buckers, the evacuation time came from Edinburgh not Glasgow. Sheesh, English people and their geography.

Why should I worry, if Mr Fish gets his way it will become foreign anyhow!