Self Storage Buildings

[ian gough]

Any idea on the size of the building Billy? And I presume it was single storey?

[Billy]

Building was approx 200m by 40 m and was 4 storey brick built with either brick or concrete floors.

Why?

[ian gough]

I wanted to get an idea of the risk. Quite a decent sized building - especially being of 4 floors. However, at 8,000 sqms, not so larg as some being built now.
Another question: was the fire on the ground floor?
In any event, in my opinon there was significant danger of entering this building - without guide lines! I wonder what the other readers would suggest here as an alternative.  
Finally, I wonder what you think about my post re 'fire appliance access'? Your building here Billy could be twice the size, but you could still only have fire appliance access to just 50% of the perimeter under current rules.

[fireftrm]

As an "alternative" x@!z/.....

1. Don't go in - defensive firefighting is definitley called for
2. Ventilate
3. If you really feel you must enter then use TIC
4. Only need a couple of aerials to pour water through the roof so we look to be doing something.

and never, never use guidelines

[Paul]

Agree 100%!!!

Far more options available other than guide lines.

Think we have covered this before!!

[Billy]

Fireftrm

I think I have covered this before!

1.("Don't go in - defensive firefighting is definitley called for") - The fire started about 10am and the first BA teams went in about 11 hours later so defensive firefighting was the reason that there was at least 6 inches of water throughout the ground floor!

2.("Ventilate") - I think this had already been carried out and didn't make much difference.

3.("If you really feel you must enter then use TIC") - Why?- We never had them then, but they wouldn't help us find our way out, in my opinion.

4.("Only need a couple of aerials to pour water through the roof so we look to be doing something")- If I was the building owner and my goods in the 4th floor were water damaged I would be taking a claim out against the fire authority responsible, and would also be 99% sure of being successful !

Sorry Firefrtm- I don't mean to be obstructive, but this was the facts of the incident and I admit that you were not fully aware of them, but here are some points where we will probably agree on!

I never wanted this to be a rant about whether to use guidelines or not, but whilst other people(including yourself) have mentioned them, here is some points I think we all agree on.

1. Don't have them on an appliance unless  there are premises you know you can use them safely.

2. If you cannot use them safely- take them off all appliances.

3. If your FRS carries out professional operational fire risk assessments on premises- you will know if we can attach guidelines safely or not in specific premises- and if we can't, you won't even consider using them.

4. As professionals, you will do the courtesy of informing the owners of the risk to fire crews of not using guidelines, and if they do not wish to fit securing points- we will not use them.

I am sorry if it sounds as if I am trying to advocate the use of guidelines, but it is quite the opposite!

IF WE CAN- WE WILL.

IF WE CAN'T WE WON'T

[ian gough]

So what would have happened guys if there was a 'persons reported' message upon arrival? Stand outside and wait for the fire to come to you?
Also:
1) how do you ventilate a self storage multi-storey warehouse with few windows?
2) do you seriously believe the fire service should use TL/HP monitors for show?? (Dave Bev, isn't that what the army do??)

[Billy]

Ian

I totally agree with your points and all I ask is that we act like the professionals we all profess to be and do proper risk assessments and make people aware of them.

Or we could carry on like we are just now and  hope that all the problems we know we have and have done nothing about, never happen, or at least happen to someone else!

[Chris Houston]

so we look to be doing something.

I hope you are joking.

[Mark Newton]

Getting back to the original post, wasn't there a fairly serious fire in a 'Big Yellow' s/s warehouse in Wandsworth, SW London? Several years back, but somebody from LFB must remember it. External arson, and everyone seemed to get a bit obsessed with the composite panel buidling shell construction, rather than all the issues of uncontrolled contents, lack of info re the customers inside etc.
I'm aware of HFL/LPG being stored in such places, and firearms/ammo have also been found.

[fireftrm]

Chris - no. If the building is unsaveable, and it is too great a risk to enter, then the water being poured through the roof is only really for show. The fire will normally go out because it has burnt the majority of the fuel, before the aerial attack becomes in any way effective.

Ian - if there was a persons reported then we would commit for rescue, but I would do absolutley everything in my powers to keep guidelines where they should be kept - in a bag on an appliance (I do think that they should be removed altogether).

Ventilation can be done by removing roof/wall panels, or even with those few windows.

No, I do not believe that we should use aerials only for show, but as I state above..........also the public expect to see water being applied in such circumstances, we know that it is (generally) useless at the early stages of a fuly involved warehouse, but we do it because we need to show we are doing something. Be honest. Aerails are really best at high level resuces and water tower use when the fire is of a size that an attack will make some difference. Defensive firefighting actions will not (again - generally) be intended to put the fire out, they may be to stop spread, here the boundary cooling from the aerial may be its main point - but the public will still expect to see water going into the burning building. Are you advocating that we stop this practice? I would agree, but the customers don't understand and will be up in arms.

[ian gough]

Mark: these buildings scare me!

Fireftrm: I wouldn't therefore like to be in your shoes if you lose anyone in such a building and they entered without a guide line. Whether you like them or not, that is the recognised method of searching in darkness/smoke etc. The FBU & Robin Thompsons would have your guts for garters (or at least, the Fire Authority's)!

And you really cannot ventilate, as you suggest (4 storey..??), in many of these buildings - go and look at some.

Also, don't think the answer is: "a non-entry policy" to any building considered difficult to deal with. Again, this wont protect you - because you always, at some time, HAVE to go in.

[fireftrm]

Ian - I agree that you may have to go in, but stand by my no-guidelines policy. I will stand up and defend my risk assessment that the guideline was not a safe option.

Not able to ventilate a 4 storey building? Why?

I have seen some of these, they are usually  not custom designed just buildings like others. The majority are warehouses of modern steel framed/panels construction and easy to ventilate. Some are in older buildings and multi-storey, of those I haven't yet come across one without a standard roof that can be holed. I am sure there are examples of other construction but the majority?

[dave bev]

ian, if buildings are built in such a way that entry would present an unacceptable risk then firefighters cannot be expected to go in. strange thing isnt it that not going into buildings was an acceptable method of firefighting during any dispute. ah, you say but they were not professionals, ah, i say, its because we are professionals we can and should make decisions not to commit internally. as regards having to go in some time, ok, when the fire is out seems to be the appropriate answer in some circumstances

bits of string, bah humbug. im pretty sure my risk assessment would consider firefighter safety pretty highly.

ok, on to the emotive 'persons reported' - the time spent in laying guidelines in such circumstances would make that particular method a non starter, but there are other things we can do - which depends on a full and proper risk assessment based on the circumstances of the incident - which are a constant dynamic, but im sorry , laying guidelines are not something i would be making a priority.

dave bev

[ian gough]

Fireftrm: but is that the policy of your brigade i.e. no guide lines? Or is it, as I suspect, just your opinion?
Dave Bev: what on earth are you on about?