Certsure and BAFE SP205 discussion- please read the full thread

[wee brian]

The ASFP introduced a requirement for members to be TPC'd many years ago.

Lots of members left, some joined. now they are even bigger than before they started.

It takes a concerted effort from lots of people and a fair bit of time to turn an industry around.

[colin todd]

Poor poor Kelsall, what a bitter twisted CB salesman he has become.  I feel so sorry for him.  As usual, however, you are talking garbage in your normal vitriolic way, so lets count all the errors in the posting. I will number them beginning Error 1 and so on so you can follow.

E1. The number of FIA members listed for fire risk assessment is to be 18 not 13. No doubt Kurnal and others can speak for themselves as to why they don't want to support TPC any more. However, we have seen all this before with requirements for TPC.  The FIA have the courage of their convictions. We went through all this with SP 203 which is now very successful as BAFE SP 205 will be.
E2. Why are IFSM reducing their number of fire risk assessors by 100.  What is the point you are making.
E3. Why would IFE and IFPO reduce the number of registered assessors by 100?  IFPO don't even have 100, bless them but they are a nice bunch of people who have been constantly raising the bar of their scrutiny.  More power to their elbow.
E4. How on earth can it be said that TPC is there to protect the IFE register?  And with regard to my part in the process, at no stage did I represent the IFE in the room in which no one would listen to you.  It was represented by 2 others, including the Chief Exec, and another chap who was doing fire risk surveys when you were in nappies.
E5. It would not be financial suicide for the IFE register to go as it makes no money for the ife , SO THIS IS MORE TOTAL RUBBISH YOU ARE SPOUTING.
E6. It is actually none of your business why we choose to support the IFE Register and BAFE SP 205, but as it happens we are contractually bound by a large client to have both so we could not cease either. We would anyway because both are worth supporting. And more and more we find new business that has come from person registration by IFE and company certification by NSI, so it pays for itself.
E7.IFE registration and BAFE registration do not cover the same thing.  Even you should know the difference between personnel certification/registration and company certification. It is for one thing QMS.The IFE support company certification, but see a benefit to the public in person certification.
E8. Having been in the business for 5 minutes and believing you know everything about it and the other 35 organisations have all got it wrong, you would not be aware that the IFE register was the brainchild of |a long gone professional development officer of the IFE, who predicted that fire risk assessors would come out of the woodwork and hoodwink the public so proposed the register as a way of attempting to pre-empt it somewhat, which is why you don't even need to be an IFE member to go on the register.

Sorry to undermine your misinformed  rant with the facts, which I know should never get in the way of the spin of a salesman, with limited experience and technical knowledge.

[Kelsall]

My first error was probably to call you a narcissist it has obviously wound you up so much you have posted an error report full of errors.
Your error number 1
 http://www.fia.uk.com/en/our-members/fire-risk-assessors/fire-risk-assessors-register.cfm
Count them - 15 you either can't count or you are assuming I am psychic and know of those waiting to be added. Actually you counted the 2 extra BB7 offices.
Your error number 2
You don't read and you certainly don't comprehend and that combined with your inability to count means that errors 1, 2. 3. 4, 6, 7 and 8 you have listed are not errors at all: actually some of them are just statements by you. Errors on the errors!
Item 5 the word suicide may have been a bit strong  so granted that may have been an error but when you look at annual subscriptions alone for the register it adds up to a significant amount of regular income with no out goings. I haven't done the sums on that recently but I can if needed.  I was also paraphrasing an IFE member who was privy to conversations at the time about the financial impact of losing that register. I appreciate you will say that person was a liar or misinformed but he was a "technical person with many years of experience" so by your own criteria he must have been correct.
Regardless of what you say Colin the introduction of UKAS accredited certification has not had any impact on the poor fire risk assessor and RPs are still paying for poor assessments; wasting their money and potentially putting the building occupants at risk and the RP at risk of prosecution. Granted there are good ones out there without certification but they are not easily identifiable.  
 It may have been a nice little earner for CS TODD but surely you didn't need it to confirm you are good at what you do? Isn't it just a rubber stamp for those who have it at the moment i.e. all the 'good' providers?  It certainly is a commercial tool the way you describe it, but in reality many of those small firms even with certification couldn't get through procurement for the big work as they don't meet the other criteria.
Sorry Colin but in my opinion you are wrong, get over it! It happens, no biggie!

[Golden]

I wasn't going to post any more on this thread but I'd like to put the record straight. I do support the raising of standards in the fire industry and TPC - but SP205 is not for me/my company and I believe it could be tweaked to make it more acceptable for the one man bands/smaller companies.

I really don't want to become a member of all of the institutes/associations so not being on their list doesn't really bother me too much and I'm not really a fan of just being on a list and not having anything to do with the organisation.

[colin todd]

In accordance with your instructions, oh great salesman in the North, I have counted. I make it 17 including your very good friend (and mine) Benjamin Bradford and his various offices.  I see he has one in Warrington.  Maybe they could give you a job if you ever want to leave Warrington Domestic Appliances, now that the bottom has dropped out of the TV market; another firm will be added soon.

 Many others are in the process of seeking certification in accordance with their agreement with FIA and will appear in the list as soon as they receive it. The number who will ultimately end up as not being FIA members as a result of not going for TPC is actually quite small.

Feel free to add up the income of the IFE; your lack of success in selling other schemes means that working out the income of those schemes wont take up much of your time.  You do not address any of the other childish and vitriolic rubbish you were spouting, such as why would IFPO lose 100 registered fire risk assessors when they don't have 100 at the moment, and how does IFSM losing assessors from their register make the world a better place.  And why would IFPO, who are doing a good job in raising the bar, abandon their register and throw in their lot with someone else.

Dear dear dear.  As you probably wrote in your long abandoned teaching days, must try harder.  It always amuses me that you attribute all the alleged problems to me personally, as though I run the world of certification and registration by your (much more successful) competitors, who don't even need salesmen to run successful schemes . It is of course right that you hold me in high regard, but sometimes you attribute developments to me that are not within my gift.  However, the publicity you give to BAFE, me, CS  Todd and Associates is always much appreciated.  You do as much for us as you do for your employer, and its all free.

Many thanks again.

[Kelsall]

I really do get to you don't I 

I give up you are correct it is all a huge success; it has really addressed the issue of poor assessors and changed the whole sector. I know nothing I am just a poor salesman who thinks you are the evil narcissistic enemy of everything. I am not worthy to even comment on the subject.  I am childish vitriolic and wrong.  I appreciate that anyone who has a different opinion to you is also wrong and they will be corrected by you with added put downs and digs but that they should accept it as they deserve it.
Once again an apology to all on the forum what was a reasonable debate has gone downhill rapidly I take full responsibility for having a different opinion than Colin?. how very dare I.
Just one question does anyone else think that Colin deflects, detracts, discredits, and disrespects a bit too much for there to be nothing in what I say? 

Sorry for the last jibe there Colin plese please don't have a go again I am sorry 

[colin todd]

Well done, Kel, you have got it at last.  No need to apologise.  I forgive you for you know not what you do.

[kurnal]

Will TPC create a generation of fire risk assessors who will hug the codes and not be able to recommend sensible pragmatic solutions for fear of their TPC? I recently queried an extinguisher supplier as to why they had sold a client two 6 litre foam extinguishers and fixed them side by side in a single small store room measuring 4m x 3m that comprised the entire first floor in a sports centre. Here is their response received today-

"Unfortunately as we work to the current BS 5306-8 and it is part of the third party certification process for all extinguisher engineers , they will always look to comply to the standard.  I agree that the 2012 amendment has some spurious additions , that in some circumstances make no sense."

Will TPC push the fire risk assessment sector down the same road effectively taking away skill, experience and judgement?  

[colin todd]

It was unfortunate that BS 5306-8 introduced the rec for a minimum of 2 extinguishers on every floor however small it might be, rather than the previous single extinguisher.  I can see that a company might receive a n/c for not conforming.  However, fire risk assessors should be less prescriptive.  Moreover, while prescription sometimes results in people doing silly things by recommending measures that are not necessary, it rarely leaves buildings unsafe, which is the current major worry.  This is where registration and TPC come in Big Al.  The IFE registration scheme (beware all imitations)  , in sampling of FRAs, considers  whether people  go over the top, as well as considering whether they are competent to ensure adequate fire safety.

[lyledunn]

There is no significant skill required to be a fire risk assessor. There is no minimum qualification. It is open to just about anyone who might see a buck in it. There is however, great skill, experience and knowledge required to be a good fire risk assessor. Therein lies the problem. Normally TPA bodies, charitable or otherwise will have a tick box entry qualification. All that happens is that some imperative drives the need to be accredited and eventually everyone, good and just about towing the line gain entry. Any bad ones found out are given ten years to put their house in order. That is what has happened in the electrical contracting industry. Membership of NICEIC meant that clear blue water separated good contractors from bad. Now however, if you are a farmer with a phases tester and you have a spare ? 400 well, welcome to the club!