Safety of firefighters

[lyledunn]

As I understand it, a FRA considers the safe evacuation of building occupants in the event of a fire, however, is there a requirement to consider the safety of fire fighters. I am thinking about the new requirement in 7671 to ensure that cables do not collapse in a fire situation. The requirement is aimed at protecting firefighters and thus may not fall within the remit of a normal FRA??

[Phoenix]

The legislation applicable in England does cover facilities that have been put in place to protect firefighters but only so far as to require the maintenance of existing facilities, whatever they may be.  So a FRA does have to consider existing facilities - existing at what time, I hear you ask?  That's debatable.  NI may be different.

But a FRA is not obliged to stop at legislative requirements, it can always include sound advice regarding bringing the premises up to a more modern standard, provided that the recipient of that advice is clear where the boundaries lie between what is legally required and what are good ideas.

[nearlythere]

Even though in NI there is no requirement for a FRA in dwellings and their common areas there is still a requirement to maintain measures provided for the protection of firefighters. In the common areas that is.
And it is maintainance not provision.

[lyledunn]

That is a very good point that you make in the last paragraph Phoenix. So are we saying that there is no statutory requirement, even of an implied nature, to secure cables so that they do not fall on firefighters?
NT, you know that domestic premises are not my thing but just out of interest can you direct me to the requirement to maintain in domestic situation?

[nearlythere]

Regulation 24 of the FS Regs NI 2010.

[Fishy]

That is a very good point that you make in the last paragraph Phoenix. So are we saying that there is no statutory requirement, even of an implied nature, to secure cables so that they do not fall on firefighters?

My understanding is that you only have to maintain what's been provided - there is no requirement under the FSO to assess whether what's there (for this particular purpose)is compliant with any standards, provided that it's maintained in accordance with the Order.  All very reasonable if you remember that the Government's original intent was that occupiers ought to be able to do the risk assessments themselves in most premises - and that would be quite difficult if they had to assess what fire-fighters might need!

If, however, you're doing "building works" within the premises (i.e. anything which falls under the relevant Building Regulations) then that would kick in & you might have to consider access & facilities for fire-fighters.  It can be quite surprising what constitutes "building works" in this context!

[Demontim]

My understanding (possibly wrong) was that the amendments were being introduced to minimise the potential for entanglement and while they may have been prompted by Rule 43 Coroner's reports into Fire-Fighter fatalities, they were not specific to operational personnel. If that is the case, would it not be considered a specific hazard to anyone resorting to the premises and subject to FRA under the FSO?

Do data cables come under the regulations or do they apply solely to electrical cables?

[Phoenix]

So are we saying that there is no statutory requirement, even of an implied nature, to secure cables so that they do not fall on firefighters?

Certainly in English legislation, there is nothing that requires such an upgrade in an existing building.  I believe NI is the same.

You make a good point, Demontim, but I think in most cases it would be hoped that evacuations will be complete before cables start to fall from the ceilings.

[lyledunn]

Yes IT cables and the like fall within the scope of BS7671 so they too will have to be properly secured.

[Fishy]

So are we saying that there is no statutory requirement, even of an implied nature, to secure cables so that they do not fall on firefighters?

Certainly in English legislation, there is nothing that requires such an upgrade in an existing building.  I believe NI is the same.

You make a good point, Demontim, but I think in most cases it would be hoped that evacuations will be complete before cables start to fall from the ceilings.

Does raise an interesting issue about places where escape routes are designed to be kept tenable under a hot smoke layer (covered shopping malls might be one example).  There might be all sorts of kit attached to the ceiling that could foreseeably detach and fall down if it gets hot & even the ceiling linings could do the same (they'll need to be Class 0 or B-s2, d3 but this doesn't preclude certain thermoplastic materials).  Not covered in any of the standards that I'm aware of, though I'd be delighted to be proven wrong?