Fire Alarm Grade

[lingmoor]

Aye up

my old tired gym has just re-located to a industrial estate unit about 30m x 14. Open plan on the ground floor with a locker area for...well locker stuff, and two offices, 10 changing room cubicles, 2 shower cubicles, 2 stores and a boiler room on the first floor short(ish) mezzaine...all passed by BC.

 Noseying around on an open day thing, there is a smoke detector in the stores, heat in the boiler room with three sounders one on the first and two on the ground floor and thats it, oh and call points at each of the three exit doors

Now, after that long winded description, my question is...what fire alarm system would that be? bit of a Part 6 Grade D for domestic premises mish mashed with another grade maybe?...or summat else...anyone know?

ta

[Mike Buckley]

Sounds like a part 1 L5 system to me.

[lingmoor]

Yes I think you're right Mike

or an M/L5 maybe

[Mike Buckley]

Sorry lingmoor, there is no such beast as a M/L5 system. All L systems incorporate a M system. A P system does not necessarily incorporate a M system if it does then it can be described as a P/M system.

[K Lard]

Sorry lingmoor, there is no such beast as a M/L5 system. All L systems incorporate a M system. A P system does not necessarily incorporate a M system if it does then it can be described as a P/M system.

Lingmoor is quite right!!! Ref: BS 5839 5.2 (f):
"Where the recommendations of this standard for a Category M system are to
be satisfied in conjunction with the recommendations for a Category P1, P2 or
L5 system, the combined system should be described as a Category P1/M, P2/M
or L5/M system respectively."

[lingmoor]

Just dug this out....

Paragraph 5 on page 7 and the table on Page 11

http://www.fidelityintegrated.com/content/files/Guidance__Selection_and_Specification_of_Fire_Alarm_Categories_in_Accordance_with_BS_5839-1.pdf

[AnthonyB]

Yep you can have an L5 without the M, the most common being in purpose built flats to operate the smoke control - smokes, but no call points or sounders.

It could be an L5/M or a very limited P2/M or more likely it's been thrown in and not designed to a particular category of BS5839-1

I assume that it is all one system and not the case of a Category M that some one has added to on the cheap/through ignorance by bunging some 240V heats and smokes in?

[lingmoor]

Cheers Anthony

I assume its all linked in...I didn't ask,  I was only being a nosey gym member

On another note on this gym (which as been passed by BC and therefore presumably thr F&RS) and I'm opening myself up here to be skittled down here!

Travel distance will be 18 metres for one way travel right?...this gym has a short mezzanine over the open plan gym floor. The mezzanine is where the changing room cubicles are as well as  showers, 'consulting room/office' stores and boiler room.

The office is at the far end of a 'dead end' corridor followed by small changing room cubicles en route to the single open stair. The corridor is not enclosed and is open to the gym on its right hand side

Thanks for staying with me! my old ADB doc says that if a dead end corridor is more than 4.5 metres then it should be protected with fire doors (which this gym hasn't got apart from stores and boiler room) would this still count as a dead end corridor if it is open on one side?

But what seems  conflicting with the 4.5 metre rule is that you are allowed 18 metres single travel (which this appears to be within)

Good job I'm retired and out of this game...the memory isn't what it was when it comes to building regs!

[Dinnertime Dave]

Cheers Anthony

I assume its all linked in...I didn't ask,  I was only being a nosey gym member

On another note on this gym (which as been passed by BC and therefore presumably thr F&RS) and I'm opening myself up here to be skittled down here!

Travel distance will be 18 metres for one way travel right?...this gym has a short mezzanine over the open plan gym floor. The mezzanine is where the changing room cubicles are as well as  showers, 'consulting room/office' stores and boiler room.

The office is at the far end of a 'dead end' corridor followed by small changing room cubicles en route to the single open stair. The corridor is not enclosed and is open to the gym on its right hand side

Thanks for staying with me! my old ADB doc says that if a dead end corridor is more than 4.5 metres then it should be protected with fire doors (which this gym hasn't got apart from stores and boiler room) would this still count as a dead end corridor if it is open on one side?

But what seems  conflicting with the 4.5 metre rule is that you are allowed 18 metres single travel (which this appears to be within)

Good job I'm retired and out of this game...the memory isn't what it was when it comes to building regs!

A few points I would make, just because Building Control have passed it it doesn't necessarily mean that the F&RS agree. The response that's heard on most occasions is that it meets the functional requirements. You may also be surprised that some F&RS send an acknowledgment of receipt, but make no or very little comments - Austerity measures  I'm told.

On the dead end distance ADB points to 5588 for its definition of a dead end. 2.5m for a dead end, protect with FR. At 4.5 you provide FR and separated the dead end with doors at its junction with other corridor. One solution that is becoming more common is the protection of the dead end with Smoke detection.

I would suggest that in your senario if I understand it correctly, either of the above solutions would be acceptable.

[lingmoor]

Cheers Dinnertime...

I was just wondering initially if it was still a  'dead end' seeing it was fully open on one side...no FR protection there obv.
so as you say it would have to be protected by auto detection, no other choice.
What I was also getting at is that the travel distance for one-way travel  (therefore a dead end!) is 18 metres...so why the 4.5 metre dead end protection rule?


Well the gym is up and running now, so I imagine it's been passed by whoever..and I would imagine that a  fire risk assessment will have been done and factored all these things in,  as there is just a smoke detector in the 'dead end' office all the rest are just changing cubicles that are empty (other than for the time a person  are changing of course!)

Anyway back to the inclined treadmill

[Golden]

Lingmoor I'm in the unenviable position of working for a client where a building is being refurbished and is not in their control but will be handed to them later this year - the AI has passed it on the advice of (their own) fire engineer despite my many protestations and the fire brigade have told me they will issue an enforcement notice (at least but it may be a prohibition notice) for the building when it opens. I fully agree with them but the AI seems to think that 32 metre dead ends (furthest point on floor plate to storey exit) on a number of floors and undersized staircases are acceptable.

The lunatics are definitely running this treadmill.

[lingmoor]

Blimey Golden...a Prohibition Notice as soon as it's open...is that some sort of record?

You would have thought the AI would be seeing his ar** on this info and get it sorted

Having said that, having worked with AI's when they first appeared on the scene, nothing surprises me

[Messy]

Having said that, having worked with AI's when they first appeared on the scene, nothing surprises me

When I was in Colin's favourite fire safety dept, I dealt with an AIs quite a lot and some were awful. My favourite AI job was proposal to refurb a bank.

I bounced the first set of plans as they were drawn in an artistic but useless wobbly pen style, and the second set of proper plans showed a 43m single direction of travel from the basement cash deposit box area to the ground floor through the banking hall. I asked my colleague to check so I didn't look a fool when I contacted him.

To cut a long story short, the AI admitted not wanting to tell this major bank they couldn't have such a long escape route, as they were a good (and new) customer and they didn't want to lose them! The rationale was the AI would blame the fire brigade for refusal instead. I still cant see how that is good business!!