Water based extinguishers in common areas of sheltered accomodation?

[Daffodil]

I have been to a number of premises now where they have decided to only install CO2 extiguishers in the common areas of sheltered accomodation, to me this is ignoring mitigating the effects of a class A fire, however they have something on site and the British Standard & CLG Guides are just guides.  Whats the general thought on only supplying CO2 extinguishers?

[kurnal]

who is expected to use the extinguishers? are there staff on site?

[Daffodil]

Yes one member of staff on site during conventional office hours. I am no necessarily expecting extinguishers on all floors particualrily where there are only flats, I am more concerned with areas tuch as the activity room, office laundry etc.

[kurnal]

I would rather see elecrically rated foam spray

[Dinnertime Dave]

Wouldn't expect to see any extinguishers in sheltered housing. Some Housing providers will put them the manager's office and in plant rooms, others say that contractors provide their own - always a little sceptical about this, is it monitored?

BS 9999 indicates they aren't required, as Kurnal says who uses them. Fire blanket in communal kitchen is all that is recommended.

[AnthonyB]

CO2 is OK for specific electrical risks but not too much else in general applications, were there distribution cupboards or similar near each one?

I'm struggling to see the point otherwise.

Most areas should be fire sterile so few places with a real risk and with an increasing lack of staffing no one to use them

[Daffodil]

Hadn't thought of BS9999 good steer, will take a look when I get a chance.

There was a CO2 in the managers office, inside the electrical distribution cupboard and one in each of the communal rooms.

I have always been sceptical of triclass extinguishers. Not sure I would be content using one so a little reluctant to recommend, lead by example and all that.

[Daffodil]

Wouldn't expect to see any extinguishers in sheltered housing. Some Housing providers will put them the manager's office and in plant rooms, others say that contractors provide their own - always a little sceptical about this, is it monitored?

BS 9999 indicates they aren't required, as Kurnal says who uses them. Fire blanket in communal kitchen is all that is recommended.

I have looked and searched BS 9999 and the only real reference is that they should be installed where necessary, the same as the CLG guide, I think this also goes on to say there are very few circumtances where extinguishers are not required.  M interpretation of that is possibly when suppression is present.

Is there anything specific to sheltered accomodation that might point me in the right direction?

[kurnal]

BS9999 does not cover dwellings, BS9991 is the document covering dwellings. Its currently out on public consultation for review. It says (section 24 page 57)

"A fire risk assessment should be undertaken to determine the need for manual fire fighting equipment in common access corridors and in other areas of the premises. Note 1- in common access corridors manual fire fighting equipment is not normally provided.  Where provided, portable fire extinguishers should conform to BSEN3 and should be selected installed and maintained in accordance with BS5306-3 and 8.

As the residents of sheltered housing cannot be expected to use manual fire fighting equipment, its provision should be restricted to higher fire risk areas such as communal lounges, communal kitchens and wardens accommodation.

Note 2 where manual fire fighting equipment is provided it is important that there are persons on the premises who are familiar with the use of the equipment"

That's a pint you owe me daffodil.

[Fishy]

BS9999 does not cover dwellings, BS9991 is the document covering dwellings. Its currently out on public consultation for review. It says (section 24 page 57)

"A fire risk assessment should be undertaken to determine the need for manual fire fighting equipment in common access corridors and in other areas of the premises. Note 1- in common access corridors manual fire fighting equipment is not normally provided.  Where provided, portable fire extinguishers should conform to BSEN3 and should be selected installed and maintained in accordance with BS5306-3 and 8.

As the residents of sheltered housing cannot be expected to use manual fire fighting equipment, its provision should be restricted to higher fire risk areas such as communal lounges, communal kitchens and wardens accommodation.

Note 2 where manual fire fighting equipment is provided it is important that there are persons on the premises who are familiar with the use of the equipment"

That's a pint you owe me daffodil.

Slight clarification (hopefully helpful) - BS 9999 does cover dwellings (e.g. flats) where the premises is in multiple use - e.g. retail on ground floor with resi above etc.).  In these cases you'd use BS 9999 as opposed to 9991.  9991 absolutely the right standard to use if the premises is residential only, though (which probably covers the vast majority of resi, I would imagine).

[Dinnertime Dave]

BS9999 does not cover dwellings, BS9991 is the document covering dwellings. Its currently out on public consultation for review. It says (section 24 page 57)

"A fire risk assessment should be undertaken to determine the need for manual fire fighting equipment in common access corridors and in other areas of the premises. Note 1- in common access corridors manual fire fighting equipment is not normally provided.  Where provided, portable fire extinguishers should conform to BSEN3 and should be selected installed and maintained in accordance with BS5306-3 and 8.

As the residents of sheltered housing cannot be expected to use manual fire fighting equipment, its provision should be restricted to higher fire risk areas such as communal lounges, communal kitchens and wardens accommodation.

Note 2 where manual fire fighting equipment is provided it is important that there are persons on the premises who are familiar with the use of the equipment"

That's a pint you owe me daffodil.

Slight clarification (hopefully helpful) - BS 9999 does cover dwellings (e.g. flats) where the premises is in multiple use - e.g. retail on ground floor with resi above etc.).  In these cases you'd use BS 9999 as opposed to 9991.  9991 absolutely the right standard to use if the premises is residential only, though (which probably covers the vast majority of resi, I would imagine).

My reference to 9999 was to the management of fire safety. A cut and paste of 5588: Pt12 I believe.

[jokar]

CFOA issued a circular on this subject in 2008.  2008/1007

[Daffodil]

its provision should be restricted to higher fire risk areas such as communal lounges, communal kitchens and wardens accommodation.

That's a pint you owe me daffodil.

And a pint you will have one day.  The section above is the bit I find interesting so communal rooms are still expected to have FFE

[Daffodil]

CFOA issued a circular on this subject in 2008.  2008/1007

Interesting read but like most things fire safety it doesnt give a definative answer.

[The Reiver]

Oh man, I pray each day for a definitive answer.

I am at present overseeing remedial works from 13 Fire Risk Assessors on a national contract for owned sheltered housing, rented sheltered housing & various levels of nursing & care homes
All have been on the same course at the same time and all have come out with differing opinions.
And once scattered across the countryside, their differing assessment for hand portables in communal areas of sheltered housing is driving me nuts.
Some want class A cover. Some want class A removing and replacing with CO2. Some say the hand portable is just to cover the exit route, some say it is to cover the occupancies too. Some just want 'work areas' covering. Some want everything covering. One even wants 4kg Dry Powders installing as a multi-purpose option.

I actually gave up & advised they carte blanche fit Wet Chemical Extinguishers in all corridors, kitchens & communal areas (Not as daft as it sounds as most these days are A, B, F & 1kv safe on electrics). They could then argue what exactly they were covering at a later date but at least nationally we would then have some parity.

Legislation & advice documents are no help either (3 x conflicting ones on the same government web site for pities sake)

I also feel for the assessors. Remove hand portables and you get dragged across the tabloids branded as a nanny state idiot. Leave them in and you get the potential 'untrained operatives' litigation banana skin thrown in your path.

And to cap it all, a recent fire in the flat of a sheltered housing scheme in Ipswich (earmarked for extinguisher removal in corridors) resulted in the attending fire brigade assessing the situation as requiring a more rapid response than dragging their lay flat kit up 3 floors, breaking in the flat door and using two hand portables from the corridor outside the flat to extinguish the fire and rescue the occupant.
Would the extra few minutes made a difference to the guy breathing in the muck the fire was producing?

It scares me that one advice document wishes removal of hand portables from corridors but states that if the occupant feels that there is a risk, they should buy their own extinguisher.
Hang on a minute......In this scenario a tenant is a trained fire risk assessor with full training on hand portable extinguisher usage when stood on their side of the front door but when they walk out onto the communally shared corridor they suddenly become a blithering imbecile.

Definitive answer ?.............I wish.