Author Topic: Evacuation chair training refusal  (Read 11210 times)

Offline The Colonel

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Evacuation chair training refusal
« on: June 24, 2015, 12:49:59 PM »
Bit of a strange one, has anyone come across simular and come up with a solution.

A multi occupied building of 7 floors including ground floor. A company occupies 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th floors, clients visit the 5th floor only for meetings some of whom may have a disability. The company has proposed the use of evacuation chairs to be located within a refuge on floor 5 and training in its use for staff, all good so far. However existing fire wardens and some staff have been approached to be trained in using the evacuation aid and declined and the client is now stuck as it doesn't think it can force employees into the training.

Has anyone come across this and found a suitable solution. Difficult one this as how are they going to achieve their responsibility of ensuring all can leave the building. Ground floor meeting rooms are not an option. the building is provided with at least 3 stairs all well separated.

Offline Tom Sutton

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Re: Evacuation chair training refusal
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2015, 02:24:04 PM »
Are they committing an offence under the FSO but how you deal with is another matter?

Art 23 (a) take reasonable care for the safety of himself and of other relevant persons who may be affected by his acts or omissions at work;

Art 32 (a) fail to comply with article 23 (general duties of employees at work) where that failure places one or more relevant persons at risk of death or serious injury in case of fire;
All my responses only apply to England and Wales and they are an overview of the subject, hopefully it will point you in the right direction and always treat with caution.

Offline idlefire

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Re: Evacuation chair training refusal
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2015, 03:09:25 PM »
Are they committing an offence under the FSO but how you deal with is another matter?

Art 23 (a) take reasonable care for the safety of himself and of other relevant persons who may be affected by his acts or omissions at work;

Art 32 (a) fail to comply with article 23 (general duties of employees at work) where that failure places one or more relevant persons at risk of death or serious injury in case of fire;


Tenuous at best, I think this would be almost impossible to prosecute.

Offline kurnal

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Re: Evacuation chair training refusal
« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2015, 05:31:46 PM »
10 quid a month and a strong persuasive argument backed up by a video such as that supied with the evac+ chair showing persons in distress has  always done the trick in my experience

Offline Psuedonym

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Re: Evacuation chair training refusal
« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2015, 06:24:10 PM »
Hell, whatever happened to helping your fellow human being?
Strange one indeed. Why refuse?
I've no doubt they'll be quoting some trumped up Union Supported H&S Members Potential Risk - Section 3:5:12 (Rev 1.2)legislation.   
Ansul R102 Kitchen Suppression Enthusiast


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Offline Dinnertime Dave

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Re: Evacuation chair training refusal
« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2015, 08:02:59 PM »


enforcers guide says -

Special attention should be given to article 21(2)(a) which demands actions from employees to safeguard themselves and other relevant persons. The actions taken by employees might be as simple as executing a safe and orderly evacuation, raising a general alarm to inform others or any other appropriate action that the responsible person considers necessary to safeguard others. This article links closely to article 23(c)(i), which requires employees to inform the employer (or other person) of situations that represent a serious and immediate danger to safety. The employer (or other person) might be informed of danger for example by raising a general alarm in case of fire.

Unlikely that enforcers would enforce on individuals.

Offline Owain

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Re: Evacuation chair training refusal
« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2015, 10:41:17 PM »
However existing fire wardens and some staff have been approached to be trained in using the evacuation aid and declined and the client is now stuck as it doesn't think it can force employees into the training.

I don't think that carrying someone down stairs in an evac chair is a 'general duty of work' for most employees. It might be for a fire warden with specific responsibility for evacuating other people from the building, but the employee could justifiably refuse to do this if they are concerned about their own ability to do so.

It might be made an explicit duty in the contract for selected new employees, but then the company would have to work hard to justify it as an occupational requirement and not discriminate against disabled applicants!

There is also the point that the company (and the employee) has no control over or prior knowledge of who will need evacuating as the evacuees are visitors not employees - there's a big difference between a lightly built person in good general health who can't use stairs and an obese person with multiple health issues.

Moving the meeting rooms and refuge to 3rd floor reduces the flights of stairs by two.

Is it possible to provide the service to clients with disabilities in other ways such as home visit or using a ground floor meeting room at another location eg business centre, hotel function room, or even a quiet corner of a cafe?

Offline colin todd

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Re: Evacuation chair training refusal
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2015, 01:06:27 AM »
I find its mostly people in places like government offices that are so truculent about helping other human beings, Corporal.

Big Al,, when the fire alarm operates at your big plush offices at Bathmat Lock, who carries you downstairs for a tenner a month from your big leather chair on the 32nd floor.
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Offline wee brian

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Re: Evacuation chair training refusal
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2015, 01:59:16 PM »
does it not have a fire fighting stair?

Offline Owain

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Re: Evacuation chair training refusal
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2015, 03:25:58 PM »
does it not have a fire fighting stair?

I was thinking more along the lines of an inflatable evacuation slide. Weeeeeee!

Offline The Colonel

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Re: Evacuation chair training refusal
« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2015, 04:15:15 PM »
Thanks for your replies guys, some interesting views.

I can't see enforcement as an option, when there are 400 employees to ask. There doesn't appear to be a fire fighting stair, the dry riser outlets are on the internal landing of each floor and with a large vertical void in the middle it wouldn't be possible to adapt and thats without the grade 2 listing of the building.

Owain, unfortunately the quiet corner of a cafe sounds good but as the business is a large legal firm bit of a problem with confidentiality. At the moment I think an alternative location to meet those clients with a disability may be the best option, that is until they employ someone with a disability.

Any more ideas would be welcome, i like the thought of the inflatable slide all we need is some cabin crew to guide us.

Offline kurnal

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Re: Evacuation chair training refusal
« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2015, 07:06:54 PM »
I came across a school with children who were wheelchair users. The Elf and Safety Officer said it was not the staffs job to put themselves at risk and that they must leave the children in the refuge, immediately leave the building and report to the assembly point. Needless to say I put them straight.

And a small care home for service users with mental health issues. The staff said that due to unpredictable behaviour and Elf and Safety issues their fire plan on operation of the fire alarm was to lock the service users in their rooms, leave the building and give the key to the fire service on arrival. Can you imagine the consequences?

Elsewhere remember its the employers responsibility to provide a fire
emergency  plan and to train staff in the implementation of the plan. Canny staff are aware of this. Now if as a member of staff you had poor working conditions and  perhaps a zero hours contract what would be your attitude?

Offline John Webb

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Re: Evacuation chair training refusal
« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2015, 07:20:09 PM »
There is another factor besides the training/practice problems of getting staff to operate evacuation chairs. Even in the last first-aid course I did around 25 years ago, it was pointed out that if you get someone down stairs by evacuation chair, they then may be separated from their own wheelchair and unable to do anything else until their own chair is recovered.
I recall that was around this time that the concept of refuges came into being, and was eventually added to AD 'B'.

John Webb
Consultant on Fire Safety, Diocese of St Albans
(Views expressed are my own)

Offline Fishy

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Re: Evacuation chair training refusal
« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2015, 09:41:22 AM »
In my opinion this is one of the most ignored issues faced in fire risk assessment - and perhaps in design too.

Evac chairs are a low capital cost option for vertical transportation of Persons of Restricted Mobility (PRMs).  The issues:

- if the person being evacuated is in their own wheelchair & has severe impairment, you have to physically transfer them to the evac chair.  PRMs might foreseeably be heavy.  Therefore your emergency plan ought to state how you ensure you have enough fit, trained staff available to do this, without unreasonably delaying evacuation.  They should be trained to safely transfer people, not just to move someone conveniently already in the evac chair.  Advice varies as to the minimum number of people you need to do this safely, but in my experience it's at least two, sometimes three (for the transfer - not for the vertical movement, which I accept a single person can manage).  This minimum number normally has to be available at all times when the building is occupied.

- they might have to do this multiple times (especially in a public building);

- I'll leave the debate about whether showing someone a video of how to use a chair and/or do the transfer is an effective training tool on its own for another time.  What I will say is that in my experience H&S managers are generally unhappy about the manual handling risks associated with go-see-do training involving transfer from wheelchairs into evac chairs.

We design a lot of public buildings, & when I sit down with the management and we go through these issues they almost invariably decide that they want to avoid relying upon evac chairs.  We're therefore specifying more and more evacuation lifts for low-rise buildings.  Capital cost is higher, but reduced staffing costs sometimes compensates (bearing in mind that in public buildings if your emergency plan invokes minimum staff numbers then for every extra person you need you might need 4-5 more employees, to cover shifts & absences).  Whole-life cost and reduced manual handling risks makes the case for the lifts somewhat more straightforward (especially as designers often over-specify evacuation lifts - if you get the configuration of stairs, refuge and lifts right then the cost for the additional systems - power supplies etc - is pretty minimal)!

Existing buildings are, of course, much more tricky and there is often no easy answer.  We normally try very hard to make a case why the existing lifts can be used (usually with some modifications).  Lifts with reasonably modern lift controllers can be tricky, because if they comply with BS EN 81 then when the fire alarm goes off the lifts won't work - no matter what you do with the car or landing calls (including any key switches).  Lift Engineers are very reluctant to program them any other way, stating that compliance with the ENs is effectively a legal requirement for them.  LFEPA have been discussing this issue with the relevant lift industry bodies, so far as I understand.

As an industry we really haven't dealt with this well - placing a piece of bent steel and canvas in a refuge and stating that the building occupants need to come up with a PEEP explaining how to use it has been an easy-out - technically it works but it often has huge management implications where you can't be sure what degree of mobility impairment you might have to deal with, nor how many people you might need to evacuate.  My prediction... in 20 years time we'll wonder how we ever convinced ourselves it is OK to build multi-storey buildings without evac lifts!

Offline Owain

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Re: Evacuation chair training refusal
« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2015, 02:36:14 PM »
...  there are 400 employees to ask. .... the business is a large legal firm bit of a problem with confidentiality. At the moment I think an alternative location to meet those clients with a disability may be the best option

The fact that there are 400 employees makes it more likely the employer would be able to find sufficient numbers of fit and able people to assist in evacuation especially of a disabled colleague, who would be a known variable and can (will) have a personalised evacuation plan which should include how to handle that person without injuring him/her and the handlers. If the evacuation plan would involve unreasonable adjustment then the company could probably refuse to employ the person.

For a legal firm confidentiality would indeed be an issue, but it's likely that another firm in the area would have accessible offices and would be able to oblige with use of a meeting room occasionally; if it was a smaller practice that didn't take on the same area of work there wouldn't be competition issues.