Defence Fire and Rescue Service

[Tom Sutton]

I believe the Defence Fire and Rescue Service is the enforcing authority for the RR(FS)O in army installations and barracks and consequently will conduct audits, accordingly, but who conducts the FRA,s are there different sections or do they do both (poacher and gamekeeper)?

[Messy]

In my experience its the base fire crew who complete the FRA, and a FSO from a regional office who audit them. However, it is a curious idea that the Responsible Person is also the Enforcer.

I have worked for a commercial customer who have premises on military bases (retail etc) and its a difficult and rather rigid environment to work with when one is not military and used to a non prescriptive risk based approach

I do not intend to hijack this thread Tom, but as we are talking DFRMO, has anyone any idea who will enforce fire safety on MoD bases when DFRMO is privatised? Or will the enforcement part remain within the MoD???

[Tom Sutton]

The DFRS cannot issue 29, 30 notices, cannot prosecute and do not have the powers of entry so their powers are limited.

I believe it is the Royal Air Force Rescue and Firefighting Service that there is talk of privatisation the Defence Fire and Rescue Service is civilianised, but is this privatisation?  Both train at RAF Manston  will this continue?

[SamFIRT]

Probably not now that Manston is to be a lorry park 

[colin todd]

have they run out of space at the ones they created at donnington?

[Mr. P]

Tom, Messy, Having spoken with someone who would tell me; There are people in DFRS/DFRMO who conduct the FRA on behalf of the RP/occupier. There is a seperate branch of fire officers, the Defence Fire Safety Regulators, for audit and enforcement purposes. The RP is still the RP as identified by the RR(FS)O 2005 who, is usually the commanding officer - this is across army, navy and airforce sites (ships classed as at sea excepted I believe).
DFRMO already consists of civil servants, RAF military and contract fire services. All parts are in consideration to be contracted (except navy aircraft handlers) - whole or parts.

Colin, I made enquiries and have been assured that you have not been left out - there is a space for your motor reserved!! (however, the spot marked CO, is not short for Colin!)

[Fishy]

Tom, Messy, Having spoken with someone who would tell me; There are people in DFRS/DFRMO who conduct the FRA on behalf of the RP/occupier. There is a seperate branch of fire officers, the Defence Fire Safety Regulators, for audit and enforcement purposes. The RP is still the RP as identified by the RR(FS)O 2005 who, is usually the commanding officer - this is across army, navy and airforce sites (ships classed as at sea excepted I believe).
DFRMO already consists of civil servants, RAF military and contract fire services. All parts are in consideration to be contracted (except navy aircraft handlers) - whole or parts.

Colin, I made enquiries and have been assured that you have not been left out - there is a space for your motor reserved!! (however, the spot marked CO, is not short for Colin!)

Just one comment - unlikely (in my view) that the RP will be the CO.  It's likely to be the Employer of the Relevant Persons - usually a Company but I guess in the case of the Armed Forces it'll be whoever the service personnel contracts of employment are with.  CO will have a role to play, certainly, but (so far as I've been told by a number of legal beagles) it's only in the smaller organisations that a single individual will be the RP.  It's normally a 'corporate' responsibility.

[wee brian]

The "RP" is the crown. Represented by the MOD.

They are exempt prosecution (Crown v Crown). Its the same for other crown premises but they are inspected by CPIG. I think the MOD does its own thing for obvious security reasons.

[Mr. P]

No. The RP is the CO. This is due to having control to 'an' extent over the employees and premises. The CO may also be known as CEO, HOE, or otherwise. There is a 'clear' delegation down from the top as to who is RP. It can furhter handed down to local unit commanders residing on a large base, but, the person, under which ever pseudonym they be known, who is RP is the one in charge of the base. But, yes, thee well could be, anumber of persons who could therefore be identified just like a corporate business/board of directors etc.
Enforcement notices have been served on some of these people.

[Tom Sutton]

I finally found what I was looking for, the Defence Fire Risk Management Organisation runs the MOD fire and rescue services both military and civilian and as a fire authority is the enforcing authority for the RR(FS)O.

They are responsible for the military (Royal Air Force Trade Group 8 Firefighter and Royal Navy Aircraft Handler), civil service (Defence Fire and Rescue Service). The rank structure is fire service not military and they are located at Andover, Hampshire. Training is at Defence Fire Training and Development Centre at Manston  situated in Kent close to the town of Ramsgate.

Policy Instruction 02/10 states, Currently the Crown has immunity from the Building Regulations however this is superseded by MOD policy which mandates that all building works must comply with the minimum standards imposed by the Building Regulations, so the RR(FS)O with some limitations and the Building Regulations apply.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/defence-fire-risk-management-organisation

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/jsp-426-fire-safety-manual

[Fishy]

No. The RP is the CO. This is due to having control to 'an' extent over the employees and premises. The CO may also be known as CEO, HOE, or otherwise. There is a 'clear' delegation down from the top as to who is RP. It can furhter handed down to local unit commanders residing on a large base, but, the person, under which ever pseudonym they be known, who is RP is the one in charge of the base. But, yes, thee well could be, anumber of persons who could therefore be identified just like a corporate business/board of directors etc.
Enforcement notices have been served on some of these people.

Think Wee B is correct - in anything but the smallest of organisations RP is rarely an individual (despite what you'd understandably infer from the word "person")!  You can't delegate the responsibilities of an RP.

[wee brian]

agreed. the CO might be a person with responsibilities but they wont be the RP. The CO doesn't employ the soldiers, thats the Crown.

[colin todd]

Yup, we b is right.  I blame the queen.  (And, history question, who was QE 1 of the UK?)

[Owain]

(And, history question, who was QE 1 of the UK?)

Was??? Has something happened???

[Mr. P]

QE 1 of the UK was a 40,000 ish tonner out of Southampton