Non-firefighting lift in a fire-fighting shaft...

[Fishy]

Just thought I'd poll a few views on here on something that we've debated in the office...

Building (undergoing extensive refurbishment & reconfiguration) has 4 floors (inc Ground) - large enough so BS 9999 recommends fire-fighting shafts, but isn't tall so doesn't require F/F lifts.  Upper floors accessible to the public (in a relatively large numbers).  Client wants evac lifts because they don't want the management & training burden of evac chairs along with the H&S risks to staff during transfer between wheelchair to evac chair (which might have to be done a number of times).

BS 9999 covers and allows non-F/F lifts in F/F shafts but only in the context of them being installed alongside a fire-fighting lift.  It doesn't explicitly cover whether it's OK to put a single non-fire fighting lift in a fire-fighting shaft.  Lift could be fire separated from the F/F lobby so you'd have single door protection between lift & lobby & two doors between lift & fire-fighting stairs.

The only reason that I can think this might raise eyebrows is if there could be confusion during fire and rescue operations because fire-fighters assume that the only lift in the F/F shaft is a fire-fighting lift when it isn't, but this could be covered with appropriate signage.  The alternative would be to construct separate shafts for the evac lifts, but this would seem incredibly inefficient.

Can anyone think of a reason why this arrangement wouldn't be acceptable?  Seems to be cropping up more as we see an increase in evac lifts being spec'd on low-rise premises.

[Mike Buckley]

Have a look at

Guidance on the emergency use of lifts or escalators for
evacuation and fire and rescue service operations
BD 2466

from dear old Communities and Local Government.

[wee brian]

If you are putting in an evac lift then why not just go down the FF lift route. can't be much in it.

[Fishy]

If you are putting in an evac lift then why not just go down the FF lift route. can't be much in it.

Three reasons...

Dual power supplies, water ingress protection & the inevitable arguments with the architects about why we're recommending something that the BS doesn't say is necessary!

[kurnal]

I would expect to see some electrical resilience in an evacuation lift. Otherwise I cant see why it would be a problem. firefighters often use non f/f lifts anyway subject to their DRA.

[wee brian]

I agree. Its only the water ingress that I would drop for an evac lift. unless its a huge building with diverse power/escape etc etc.

Didn't a bunch of LFB firefighters get stuck in a non ff lift recently (last two years). They got confused over which lift was which.

It would be funny but things got a bit hairy.

[wee brian]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14164761

My recollection was that the crew used a standard lift rather than the fire fighting lift. There was some confusion about which lift was which....

Press reports are, as always, inaccurate.

[Fishy]

BS 9999 Annex G evac lift requires Primary & Secondary supply circuits, but not dual power supplies (i.e. two intakes to the premises).  Can be significantly different to the full BS 8519 supply to an evac lift & can make a vast difference to cost if the building doesn't require dual supplies for other reasons (e.g. smoke control fans etc).

[kurnal]

Agreed Fishy. Have seen independent separated feeds from the single main intake, protected single circuits and UPS solutions providing limited cycles if the main power fails. It seems to be a case of making the best of what you have.

[Fishy]

Don't really like the UPS solution - again BS 9999 discourages you from using these because of their limitations (often don't drive lift at full speed; not enough cycles - bearing in mind what BS 9999 says about the required duty).

Back to the OP - seems that there aren't any fundamental objections to the only lift in a F/F shaft not being a fire-fighting lift, in buildings that don't require one?

[Fishy]

...firefighters often use non f/f lifts anyway subject to their DRA...

Just a point of info on this - if the lifts are 'modern' and compliant with BS EN 81-73 then once the recall signal is made, all car and landing calls (including keyswitches in the car) would be disabled, so this will not be an option.  The only thing the fire recall signal does not over-ride is maintenance operation e.g. technician driving the lift from the top of the car or in the lift well.  There's nothing you can do to move the lift until the fire alarm is reset.

Come across this sometimes when people try to 'risk assess' the use of non-evac lifts during a fire emergency - they don't realise they won't work if the fire alarm is sounding - and this includes staff overrides / key switches!  Evac and/or F/F lifts are obviously different and can be over-ridden.

As I said, only an issue with modern controllers, but all relatively new lifts (and most refurbished lifts) will operate as above.