Author Topic: Statistical conundrum  (Read 22245 times)

Offline colin todd

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Statistical conundrum
« on: December 27, 2015, 07:36:14 PM »
Here is a wee analogy that has bugged me for some time, but can be solved by anyone with a Scottish o grade in statistics.  If you can see the relevance to fire safety before the bells toll on new years eve, there will be a bottle of wine.

Imagine that the 1st percentile of the height of males was 5 feet.  Further imagine that the 99th percentile was 7 feet.  Should we then design doorways in building to be 12 feet in height to be sure they are ok for 100% of people.
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Offline Owain

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Re: Statistical conundrum
« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2015, 07:59:15 PM »
Here is a wee analogy that has bugged me for some time, but can be solved by anyone with a Scottish o grade in statistics.  If you can see the relevance to fire safety before the bells toll on new years eve, there will be a bottle of wine.

Imagine that the 1st percentile of the height of males was 5 feet.  Further imagine that the 99th percentile was 7 feet.  Should we then design doorways in building to be 12 feet in height to be sure they are ok for 100% of people.

Only if the dwarves are riding piggyback on the shoulders of giants.

Offline William 29

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Re: Statistical conundrum
« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2015, 08:38:17 PM »
I don't think you can use the term dwarfs anymore? it's persons of restricted growth.

Colin, you need to get out more or take a longer Christmas break?  ;)

Offline kurnal

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Re: Statistical conundrum
« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2015, 09:58:06 PM »
If the term dwarf is inappropriate then giant must also be so? The jury is out on the term piggyback as its use must depend on context.

Offline kurnal

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Re: Statistical conundrum
« Reply #4 on: December 27, 2015, 11:06:48 PM »
To answer Colins question that would be onerous in the extreme and therefore not cost effective. You need to determine a percentile range that is considered societally acceptable recognising that not all persons needs will be met by the building /means of escape /  lighting / fire alarm / signage design then recognise that those who are therefore disadvantaged by the compromise have their needs met as a special case. Personally I like a nice Chianti please.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2015, 11:08:40 PM by kurnal »

Offline colin todd

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Re: Statistical conundrum
« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2015, 01:04:11 AM »
Kurnal you are getting warm but only like to the level of 3/10.  Try a bit harder.
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Offline kurnal

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Re: Statistical conundrum
« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2015, 10:39:43 AM »
But if you only make the door 12 ft without increasing storey height then they will bang their head on the floor above unless you raise this too.

But I guess you are seeking to explore the old chestnut with regard to whether there is life beyond  the 99th percentile. Everybody would be smaller than your notional 100 percentile.   Riserva will suffice.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2015, 08:22:49 PM by kurnal »

Offline colin todd

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Re: Statistical conundrum
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2015, 11:04:00 AM »
Yes, yes, yes Big Al, but what is the relevance of the statistical point to fire safety design of buildings.
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Offline Mr. P

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Re: Statistical conundrum
« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2015, 12:16:43 PM »
Why? It never seems to have much before. If one is considering piggy back, then surely the faithful horse must have a shot too? Just resurrect the brief references for animal premises. After all, there but for the grace wee Rab Burns, we may all go and bang our heads on cave walls.
HNY All.

Offline lyledunn

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Re: Statistical conundrum
« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2015, 02:21:17 PM »
I have recently returned from a couple of pleasant days in Glasgow. I must say that you should be less concerned with exit height and turn your attention with a degree of urgency to exit width. Apart from Oklahoma City, I don't think I have seen so many fat arses in the one place! No disrespect to Glasgow intended, Belfast is not far behind, if you will forgive the pun. Twelve feet sounds about right for the minimum exit width from all fast food outlets.

Offline Dinnertime Dave

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Re: Statistical conundrum
« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2015, 03:58:44 PM »
I have recently returned from a couple of pleasant days in Glasgow. I must say that you should be less concerned with exit height and turn your attention with a degree of urgency to exit width. Apart from Oklahoma City, I don't think I have seen so many fat arses in the one place! No disrespect to Glasgow intended, Belfast is not far behind, if you will forgive the pun. Twelve feet sounds about right for the minimum exit width from all fast food outlets.

Glasgow - Where chips are a pizza topping.

Offline nearlythere

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Re: Statistical conundrum
« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2015, 05:28:31 PM »
I have recently returned from a couple of pleasant days in Glasgow. I must say that you should be less concerned with exit height and turn your attention with a degree of urgency to exit width. Apart from Oklahoma City, I don't think I have seen so many fat arses in the one place! No disrespect to Glasgow intended, Belfast is not far behind, if you will forgive the pun. Twelve feet sounds about right for the minimum exit width from all fast food outlets.
You obviously don't go to the right places Lyle? There are fat arses everywhere. Its really about not frequenting the same places.
We're not Brazil we're Northern Ireland.

Offline kurnal

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Re: Statistical conundrum
« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2015, 06:29:19 PM »
There is clearly a role for statistical analysis of human size, speed of movement, sensory thresholds etc in the design of fire safety within buildings. Such considerations are already included in fire engineering to some extent. Whilst studies of population characteristics and related percentiles are of direct relevance and use in some aspects of fire safety design, they are of less or indirect relevance  in others.

For example it is clear that  tenability and toxicity limits in a fire engineered building must always exceed  safe limits plus a safety margin  for all occupiers- 100% of the population. It would be farcical to design CO levels at a toxic level for a percentage of the population during the evacuation phase.  Statistical analysis will identify tenability limits. But levels of toxic substances this is of course interlinked to other factors that contribute to the evacuation time, and this is where an overall  suitable safety margin will contribute to an acceptable level of safety.

In respect of means of escape, exit width calculations should be reviewed using statistical analysis taking account of the increased stature of the population since the Post War Building Studies were published. In order to set an appropriate percentile range, studies could be carried out across a range of occupancies. Height of doors is a less important factor for many reasons.   

In many other aspects some degree of compromise is appropriate to ensure the provisions are reasonably practical. This includes fire alarm audibility, signage visibility, lighting levels. All these factors can reasonably be addressed in other ways for those who fall outside the percentile threshold.     

All of the above needs to be balanced by a judgement on what Society will tolerate.

The hard bits include a detailed analysis of all human factors and a decision as to whether they have a direct bearing on fire safety through the ASET/ RSET approach.

For those that have only an indirect bearing (audibility of alarms, standard of lighting etc) an arbitrary percentile range could be set without danger knowing that the provisions for persons with special needs will provide a reasonable level of safety.

For those that have a direct bearing  (escape route width for example) then it might be necessary to widen the percentile range based on intelligence linked to studies of occupancy types.

Finally for some factors (toxicity for example) only 100%  plus a suitable  safety margin will suffice.   

Theres more to this than meets the eye once you start to think about it. Penny for your thoughts Colin?

Offline Davo

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Re: Statistical conundrum
« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2015, 08:42:55 PM »
Mr P

Surely you are right, as I seem to remember HMG issuing guidance regarding the MoE for horses ???

However, what it failed to mention was taking into account those elderly animals unable to open the doors due to closer tension. Perhaps one should look to a certain company to make a larger version of their well known product.

In regard to percentiles, the answer is 95.

Chairs are made to BS using 95% for height adjustment, weight etc etc.
Central heating in public buildings is designed to account for 95% of all weather conditions

I rest my case (of Retsina)

davo 


ps.speaking of MOE, anyone notice how bad a certain large chain signs its premises??????????

Offline wee brian

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Re: Statistical conundrum
« Reply #14 on: December 29, 2015, 08:44:59 PM »
Door heights and other ergonomic things are usually aimed at the 95th centile or thereabouts as Davo says.
a sensible approach (very tall people will have to duck through doors, very short people may find it difficult to reach things - but then the whole access issue gets into all this......).

But with fire safety we're talking about peoples lives and its hard to get people to talk sensibly.

of course, we (on Firenet) all understand that absolute safety is not possible. so we have to adopt what is reasonable.

I remember Howard Morgan (sadly lost to us now) telling me that a worst case scenario was not a sensible design parameter as this would involve a explosion and fire ball engulfing the whole building. What we needed was a "reasonably pessimistic scenario"

For deterministic analysis we need to pick a number - not easy. so we tend to us a comparative approach comparing what we've got with a "code compliant" solution. thus using a magic number made up by "them"......

or people just blag their way through it and try to sound like they know what they are doing.

but you knew all of this, so why the question?