Door closers

[jasper]

I have done a search on the forum and cannot find any info. The situation I have is a supported housing project whereby they are currently using the sping loaded hinges for closure of fire doors. As these do not comply, overhead closers cannot be used due to ligature risk, the only option I can seee are double chain perco closers but these are ?150 each plus fitting x 20 doors. Does anyoe have any other ideas?

[kurnal]

Do the doors have latches Jasper or is the closer required to hold the door onto its rebate?
 

[Tom Sutton]

Perkomatic R85 Door Closer (double chain) is not CE-marked and does not conform to BS EN 1154. You would have to use Perko Powermatic Concealed Fire Door Closer which is CE marked and conforms to BS EN 1154 which costs a lot more.

[jasper]

Do the doors have latches Jasper or is the closer required to hold the door onto its rebate?
 

they all have latches

[kurnal]

So in mitigation, if correctly adjusted could it be argued that it is the latch and not the closer that has to hold the door shut for the requisite period. So provided we can ensure that having completed the evacuation in the early stages of a fire, with good staff training it should be possible to ensure the only persons likely to open the door would be firefighters? Just for the sake of argument would this be a reasonable additional risk control measure to justify the sprung hinges in question?

[Fishy]

Spring hinges almost invariably won't reliably close the door over a latch unless they're wound up so tight it slams from more or less any angle of opening.  That'll wreck the doors, frame/fixings & ironmongery over time - or the slamming will be so annoying that they'll be disabled or adjusted so that they no longer slam (and therefore no longer close the door, so they're worse than useless).  It's been acknowledged bad practice putting these on fire resisting doorsets for the last 30 years or so.

As an aside, they often require the removal of so much of the door (due to the size of the bearings & the shape of the hinge leaves) that they wreck the doorset's fire resistance performance as well.

In my opinion, as there's a simple, low-cost, good  practice solution (e.g. the CE marked Perko) then it ought to be adopted.

[kurnal]

I note what you say Fishy and share your dislike of the damage and noise caused by most concealed closing systems. But these doors are in a housing project and have latches and these are clearly there to stay. I think you would probably have the same issues with the EN compliant perko?

Another option might be to mount a conventional self closer on the outside of the door rather than the inside which can reduce the liklihood of banging your head on it. 

[Tom Sutton]

Jasper what do you mean by "due to ligature risk" how do you think it will manifest itself.

Kurnal all that Fishy said does not apply to the Perko Powermatic Concealed Fire Door Closer it is fully compliant the only issue I would have is the low cost, at nearly 200 pounds I would not call it low cost.

[Golden]

I believe its the self-harm risk for the clients. I'm with Kurnal about turning around the closer or using this type where the arm is flush unless the door is open.

http://www.designbuild-network.com/contractors/joinery/dorma/dorma5.html

[Tom W]

Do the doors have door handles?

[Fishy]

If it's only a ligature risk when the doorsets are closed that's the issue, then concealed 'transom' closers would remove pretty much all the risk: http://www.ironmongerydirect.co.uk/products/door_closers_and_controls/concealed_overhead_door_closers

Many are OK to fit to fire-resisting doorsets when protected by intumescent gaskets.

I would disagree that ?200-00 isn't low cost - if the spring hinges have compromised the performance of an essential risk reduction measure then ?200-00-ish to correct (per installation) sounds ALARP to me!  If those doors aren't properly closed then they will have zero fire resistance.

[jasper]

Jasper what do you mean by "due to ligature risk" how do you think it will manifest itself.

Kurnal all that Fishy said does not apply to the Perko Powermatic Concealed Fire Door Closer it is fully compliant the only issue I would have is the low cost, at nearly 200 pounds I would not call it low cost.

The premises is for young people who are a suicide risk

[col10]

If the doors open inwards there is a risk of barricading. Id be wary that they are overstating the suicide risk because they do not want more expensive closers.  It is supported housing so residents can go outside and be exposed to other methods of suicide, and it is not secure accommodation.
 I have seen the concealed type overhead closer used in a care home where it was wanted for aesthetic reasons.  The one problem, which was overcome, was that the closers were fitted without the kits for strips and seals.  The kits for strips and seals had to be retro fitted.

[Dinnertime Dave]

Jasper what do you mean by "due to ligature risk" how do you think it will manifest itself.

Kurnal all that Fishy said does not apply to the Perko Powermatic Concealed Fire Door Closer it is fully compliant the only issue I would have is the low cost, at nearly 200 pounds I would not call it low cost.

The premises is for young people who are a suicide risk

I assume that Colin is right that if they aren't in secure accommodation they would be exposed to risk outside the premises.

I've dealt with mental health hospitals with quite high risk patients as an IO. The ligature risk was always quoted as a reason not to do something. If the risk is so great then it was agreed that due to staffing numbers being very high, and the nurses stations were sited to give a constant site of all bedroom doors then self closers were removed and anti barricade doors were fitted, these allowed the frame to be removed then remove the door. if as I suspect that the risk isn't as high as all that then why not put the self closers on the corridor side.

[Mike Buckley]

I am not sure how the door closer will increase the risk of suicide, there have been many cases where a person has managed to hang themselves on the door handle.